timepiececlock (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timepiececlock) wrote2009-05-30 01:26 am
timepiececlock) wrote2009-05-30 01:26 am
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A much needed, but probably rote, discussion on Vulcan emotions in Star Trek
I feel like I can't write Spock's POV until I get this, and there's something fundamental about the whole thing that is escaping me.
So, in the movie, young Spock talks about a Kolinar ceremony to "purge all emotion". I looked it up and it seems TOS Spock almost took it in the first movie (the only one I haven't seen), but didn't. We know the new Spock didn't, because he joined Starfleet instead. So... he still has all his emotions. He's clearly repressed them in an unhealthy way that is different from the other Spock, and other Vulcans. TOS Spock would never have the kind of anger management problem / burst of blind rage that this Spock had. Also, he was a sensitive kid, who seemed only to learn to fake stoicism instead of actually being emotionless. This Spock is seething with emotion he doesn't express...blame the actor ZQ for staring soulfully into the camera, but it's true. So in fact, writing Spock himself isn't exactly the problem. He's just a really repressed guy, fine.
It's all the other Vulcans I don't understand. And in order to understand Spock's goals of being Vulcanish, I've got to understand what he was TRYING to be.
In short... I don't get the whole emotionless religion thing. Is the idea to have no emotion affect your decisions at all, almost a Jedi thing but worse? To be without earthly attachment?... Or is it to accept and control the emotions, acknowledging them while outwardly stifling them so no one knows what's actually driving you? This is an important distinction, because one is an absence of emotional motivation, and one is just being super reserved in public.
If the goal is to reach a mental state where they have no emotions... is Sarek atypical for loving his wife? Is nuSpock a total failure at being a good little Vulcan?
I know what they say in the movie, about how Vulcans actually feel very deeply, but that seems to directly contradict with everything else I've read about it, and with the whole religion of emotionlessness. I especially don't get what that means for, like, daily life.
Do they only avoid anger/fear/sadness/pride/humor/joy, etc?
Do they feel CONFUSION?
What about the smaller emotions? Like curiosity, ambivalence, vanity, nostalgia, cynicism? Excitement, thankfulness, lethargy?
Self-confidence?
How do they choose what color of towels they buy at the store? How do they know if they prefer broccoli over spinach? Blue pen or black pen? How do they decide between jelly donut and sprinkled?
Without emotion, how do you even operate in a world where you're constantly forced to make little decisions that have no logical answer, but become an expression of your tastes and preferences? ...preferences come from the emotion of pleasure/affection, and irritation/dissatisfaction.
But they can't have a favorite color, because THEY HAVE NO EMOTIONS!
Or they just pretend?
I'm confused.
I'm especially confused because Older Spock, Spock from the movies 1-6, is not emotionless that I remember. He's pretty stoic, sure, but he obviously loves the crew and his BFF Jim, and he obviously cares deeply about the Federation's safety. If I were going to write about Spock Prime, I'd just write about him as this pleasant, wise old guy who stays calm in almost anything but has a secret preference for Earth carrots and misses his old friend Jim Kirk. The idea that he's supposed to emotionless because Vulcans are, would never enter into my concept of the character at all. I'd write him as a fully empathic character, with complete active range of emotions even if he doesn't voice them very often.
Would that be, like, the completely WRONG reading of what his character is meant to be? Is this the noobie failure equivalent of assuming that hobbits are all short because they don't have domesticated cows so none of them took enough calcium as a child?
Did I miss the memo at the beginning of everything that said to all the fans, "This is what the Vulcan shit is all about?" My questions can be summarized thus:
1. What is this Vulcan shit about?
2. What does that mean for Old TOS Spock?
3. What does that mean for new AU Spock? [as of the end of the movie]
4. Are either Spocks striving to be more or less of this philosophy?
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spock_uhura
So, in the movie, young Spock talks about a Kolinar ceremony to "purge all emotion". I looked it up and it seems TOS Spock almost took it in the first movie (the only one I haven't seen), but didn't. We know the new Spock didn't, because he joined Starfleet instead. So... he still has all his emotions. He's clearly repressed them in an unhealthy way that is different from the other Spock, and other Vulcans. TOS Spock would never have the kind of anger management problem / burst of blind rage that this Spock had. Also, he was a sensitive kid, who seemed only to learn to fake stoicism instead of actually being emotionless. This Spock is seething with emotion he doesn't express...blame the actor ZQ for staring soulfully into the camera, but it's true. So in fact, writing Spock himself isn't exactly the problem. He's just a really repressed guy, fine.
It's all the other Vulcans I don't understand. And in order to understand Spock's goals of being Vulcanish, I've got to understand what he was TRYING to be.
In short... I don't get the whole emotionless religion thing. Is the idea to have no emotion affect your decisions at all, almost a Jedi thing but worse? To be without earthly attachment?... Or is it to accept and control the emotions, acknowledging them while outwardly stifling them so no one knows what's actually driving you? This is an important distinction, because one is an absence of emotional motivation, and one is just being super reserved in public.
If the goal is to reach a mental state where they have no emotions... is Sarek atypical for loving his wife? Is nuSpock a total failure at being a good little Vulcan?
I know what they say in the movie, about how Vulcans actually feel very deeply, but that seems to directly contradict with everything else I've read about it, and with the whole religion of emotionlessness. I especially don't get what that means for, like, daily life.
Do they only avoid anger/fear/sadness/pride/humor/joy, etc?
Do they feel CONFUSION?
What about the smaller emotions? Like curiosity, ambivalence, vanity, nostalgia, cynicism? Excitement, thankfulness, lethargy?
Self-confidence?
How do they choose what color of towels they buy at the store? How do they know if they prefer broccoli over spinach? Blue pen or black pen? How do they decide between jelly donut and sprinkled?
Without emotion, how do you even operate in a world where you're constantly forced to make little decisions that have no logical answer, but become an expression of your tastes and preferences? ...preferences come from the emotion of pleasure/affection, and irritation/dissatisfaction.
But they can't have a favorite color, because THEY HAVE NO EMOTIONS!
Or they just pretend?
I'm confused.
I'm especially confused because Older Spock, Spock from the movies 1-6, is not emotionless that I remember. He's pretty stoic, sure, but he obviously loves the crew and his BFF Jim, and he obviously cares deeply about the Federation's safety. If I were going to write about Spock Prime, I'd just write about him as this pleasant, wise old guy who stays calm in almost anything but has a secret preference for Earth carrots and misses his old friend Jim Kirk. The idea that he's supposed to emotionless because Vulcans are, would never enter into my concept of the character at all. I'd write him as a fully empathic character, with complete active range of emotions even if he doesn't voice them very often.
Would that be, like, the completely WRONG reading of what his character is meant to be? Is this the noobie failure equivalent of assuming that hobbits are all short because they don't have domesticated cows so none of them took enough calcium as a child?
Did I miss the memo at the beginning of everything that said to all the fans, "This is what the Vulcan shit is all about?" My questions can be summarized thus:
1. What is this Vulcan shit about?
2. What does that mean for Old TOS Spock?
3. What does that mean for new AU Spock? [as of the end of the movie]
4. Are either Spocks striving to be more or less of this philosophy?
cross-linked to
spock_uhura
Re: it would be awesome to actually complete my thought!
STXI!Spock doesn't suppress his emotions in a way that's any more or less healthy than any other Vulcan. He's just worse at it, ostensibly because of his half-human heritage.
On this point...I think a lot of people easily misunderstand Vulcans in general because of a sort of "nature vs. nurture" misconception about what exactly it means for Spock to be half human. To my knowledge/memory there's never been anything in canon that necessarily indicates Spock struggles more with controlling his emotions because of a sort of genetic handicap of being half human. This wouldn't make much sense since the Vulcan/Romulan history proves that they're not naturally an emotionally reserved race and their self-control has to be learned.
As STXI suggests pretty strongly, I think it's more of an identity conflict that holds him back from being a perfect Vulcan. Like you pointed out is a big factor, his relationship with his human mother was a very integral and influential part of his life and that has made him feel like his human side is still an important part of who he is rather than something that needs to be completely overcome. There's a lot more choice involved in what makes him the kind of Vulcan that can have close relationships and make subtle sarcastic remarks than some people seem to give him credit for.
Re: it would be awesome to actually complete my thought!
Though I think I do remember some things about a particular part of Vulcan's brains or brain chemistry etc. corresponding to this sort of thing. I might have to check Memory Alpha, but I don't know that it's something that has never ever been established in any way at all. Also, wrt the Romulan thing, it doesn't really mean that much because the separation was supposed to be so long ago that they evolved separately and in different ways from Vulcans. I mean, Romulans don't experience pon farr either.
Re: it would be awesome to actually complete my thought!
*nod* Good point. Even if the philosophy of logic originated because of their ancestors' need to keep from being a violent society, I guess it's entirely possible it's just something that stayed around in their culture even if Vulcans are different enough from Romulans now that it isn't so much a necessity anymore.