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I keep wondering if I'm the only person who was watching Angel explain his New Deal to the crew and all the while wondering,

"But he's still evil! He killed Aragorn who 'held him as a brother'! And he's not telling them this! That seems pretty damn evil to me! Don't trust him guys!"

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uhuh, was thrown by that as well.

But confirmed that Spike and Angel had gay sex!

YES!

Sun

I was pretty "yeah whatever" by the whole gay thing. All the sex jokes this season were amusing at first (Angel spanking men), but they've gotten old to me by now. They're just shock-value humor and do nothing but amuse some of the fans-- it doesn't contribute to any story line or plot.

I'd be impressed if they had a conflict that was connected in some way to Spike/Angel's past "intimate" liasons.... like Willow's multi-seasonal character arc of being gay that started with a funny one-liner in Dopplegangland.

Word to everything you said. Campy and slash does not equal plot.

Campy and slash does not equal plot.

Especially since we already know that ME is willing to make their characters gay, or make gay jokes about their characters (way back in high school for Xander), so it's not like a bold step. In a way it is because Angel's the actual start of the show... but it's so small scale I just get no reaction from it anymore.

That troubled me too. The only explanation I could think of was that Angel knew he was going to die and it was a mercy sort of thing. Or, maybe Angel is really buying into the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one and just sacrificing him for the plan. The latter makes me kind of itchy though.

Or, maybe Angel is really buying into the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one and just sacrificing him for the plan.

Looked that way.
::grumble::

I have to wonder if killing Drogyn was an indication that maybe Angel's gotten a little too deep, if he's reached a point where in trying to fight the Senior Partners and their minions, he's starting to become like them, using their techniques.

I'm willing to hold judgement on this bit until after next week when we see the second half.

he's starting to become like them, using their techniques.

That certainly might be the case. All it does, though, is make me like Angel's character less and less. Then again, I've never watched the show for him anyway, and I've liked him even less this season.

I dunno - when Drogon (how do you spell that anyway?) says "thank you", I couldn't tell if he was thanking Angel for rescuing him only to receive a bitter surprise; or whether he was thanking Angel for killing him at that point... Hard to say!

The thing is that Angel is going into this fully expecting to die - he made a point of saying that EVERY member of the Black Thorn will have to be killed and I'm sure he includes himself in that number (although I don't think the others quite got that.) Sniffle! So sad.

I couldn't tell if he was thanking Angel for rescuing him only to receive a bitter surprise; or whether he was thanking Angel for killing him at that point... Hard to say!

It looked to me like surprise.

I wasn't thrown by it. I don't think Angel's evil. I think Angel's damned himself -- if he wasn't damned already -- and forced himself to do a terrible thing in order to not make all this for nothing. Not unlike Giles in The Gift. True, Ben was nothing to Giles, but OTOH Angel at least has the comfort of knowing that Drogan would have approved the mission if he knew of it, and that he'd had a longer life even than Angel already. Doesn't make it right -- nothing makes it right -- but doesn't to me make Angel evil either, just because the act was.

As for not telling the gang -- stupid, yes. But I think it's that "I don't want to burden you with the painful info" thing that Angel *always* does -- with Buffy, with Connor, with Nina. He told them the essence -- he was doing bad things to get into the belly of the beast, he hadn't done it to anyone they personally loved.

That habit of his of not telling is annoying.

I don't know if I'd compare it to Ben, though. As long as Ben existed Glory was still a threat to all the world... Dagon wasn't. Giles taking out a mostly-innocent because he is a threat to other innocents (ALL other innocents) is different than killing a comerade as an acceptable sacrifice.

I do see how Dagon might have agreed to sacrifice himself for the cause, but that's not something other people get to decide for you. No no no no no. It was an evil act. Then again, he seems to be willing to do a lot of evil to get in with the other evilers to blow everyone up.

No no no no. Not acceptable. Does not compute in brain.

Then again, Angel's hardly the nicest person in the world or the most compassionate.

ok,, i have one thing to add, that could either a) clear this up... or b) make me look stupid.

the door of fire that angel jumped through.... from the previous eppys we know that the door of fire leads to the basement in the alternate dimension where gunn was kept and tortured.
except gunn didn't actually DIE. i mean, he had his heart ripped out every day, so in effect, he did. but then he was alive again only to relive that day over and over and over.
so angel killed drogan in the basement. but then by the same pattern, doesn't drogan then live in order to RElive that day over and over and over? in fact, they showed that scene twice in the episode. i think that it wasn't the SAME instance (shown a second time so we could see who the victim was)... but was in fact another day, and another death for drogan at the hands of angel.
so my thinking, is that yes - angel killed drogan. but he did it in such a way that he wasn't REALLY killing him. making him suffer, surely. but as he said - drogan could take care of himself. and i'm sure if drogan was in on the plan (and maybe he was... how many flashy things does angel have??) he would have gone along with it anyway to fight the greater good.

yes, no?

Well.... no. I don't think it was an AU; I think he really killed him.

But it's a nicer thought, so thank you. I shall cling to it.

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