is it blank slate, or acceptance?
Jan. 23rd, 2003 12:37 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlockWatched Angel.. some vague convo about the episode, and a short, pointed rant about souls & vampires and general plot/character laspes between & within the two shows of Buffyverse.
Ok, I was liking this episode. Really. A lot, actually. The dialogue was good, Wes as sexy, the gore was scary instead of corny, the Connor scene w/ the demon & the slow-mo & the flying out of windows was cool. The eternal night was extra cool. Very scary. Someone on the writing staff has been reading![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
eliade's Season Noir during their lunch break.
Liked it right up until the last two minutes, wherein Angel becomes Spike-of-Manchuria ver. 2.0.
All I can say is there better be a phonecall pretty soon between Sunnydale and LA, in which Wesley and Buffy have a long conversation about souled vampires being mentally fucked with by supreme evils. Cause if this is all entirely separate events--- that's just stupid. Stupid and repetitive and lazy.
And these people are on crack, thinking they could control soulless Angel.
And watching the last five minutes of this episode--- it almost contradicted the hihgly enjoyable 35 preceeding minutes. Because I was listening too them saying "Angelus, Angelus, Angelus" like he was a separate person (ironically, Angel is the only person who didn't say this, still referring to it all in first-person), and I kept thinking about Spike-post soul. Is he regarded as an entirely separate person even though he behaves radically different? No. He doesn't get a new, non-violent name. Nobody offers or even attempts to call him William in leiu of choosing a new one.
I think this can mean either two things, or possibly both:
1.) that in fact they are the same person w/ soul, and the SG is correct in the assumption of treating Spike like Spike and blaming him for his actions when he had no soul. This would logically mean that the LA gang (in assuming that Angelus is a separate, individual being within Angel--and Wesly ought to know better by now) is actually wrong and it's them that carry the misconception of what a soul means.
2.) the LA group is right, and the demon and the man are entirely separate, individual creatures in one body, capable of thinking independantly of one another. In which case Spike is now a total innocent, and the SG need to stop treating him liek the guy who killed people for 125 years & tried to rape Buffy, and start treating him like a *new* person, the way Dawn was "new".
Or... the most illogical answer, but probably what we'll be forced to assume:
3.) That the LA gang is right AND the BtVS gang is right: either because Spike is a "special" vampire, whose inner person is the same be it driven by soul or demon, and all vampires are like Angel; or the opposite-- that Angel is special with his double-personality thing, and all other vampires would be like Spike-- the same person, only driven by different desires when in a state of soul or lack of soul.
Either way, it's irritating. I knew this kind of thing would happen thinking about it post-Grave: that Spike wouldn't be given the tabula rasa that Angel was. And maybe it's better that he wasn't, because at least this way Spike's more knowledgable about his own entire inner self (all sides) than Angel, and Buffy is too, and thus she understands Spike better. It becomes what it is for Spike now: acceptance of change/growth rather than denying the sinner entirely (Angel).
However, in Angel's case it means everyone treats him like a different person, and convinces him he doesn't need to feel guilty because it wasn't him--- whether he agrees on this point or not. And I don't know that this necessarily means Angel got the better deal-- if Angelus really IS part of who Angel is, a dark part of him, the PERSON, then surely it's got to be healthier for him to accept that, and not for the people around him to pretend that it's different if it's not.
And isn't the fact significant that Angel's character from the very beginning of being written in the show was portrayed calling himself "Angel", not "Liam" or "Lee" or "William", meaning that he feels he is closer to who Angelus was than to who Liam was? If he really feels inside that he's not the same person like everyone says he's not, then wouldn't he have chosen to cast off the name of the demon as soon as he got his body back, in an effort to distance himself from what "he" didn't really do?
After the soul, for vampires, is it blank slate, or acceptance?
I don't know which way is better, or which is less painful, but I just wish they'd all pick one and be consistant.
Either both S&A "have souls" and thus are both uniformly forgiven and not held responsible, or they both are just the same demons w/ some new guilt button, and should be blamed for their ALL actions.
Is consistancy and logic no longer trendy?
That being said, evil Angel is neat, and fun to watch.
Ok, I was liking this episode. Really. A lot, actually. The dialogue was good, Wes as sexy, the gore was scary instead of corny, the Connor scene w/ the demon & the slow-mo & the flying out of windows was cool. The eternal night was extra cool. Very scary. Someone on the writing staff has been reading
eliade's Season Noir during their lunch break.Liked it right up until the last two minutes, wherein Angel becomes Spike-of-Manchuria ver. 2.0.
All I can say is there better be a phonecall pretty soon between Sunnydale and LA, in which Wesley and Buffy have a long conversation about souled vampires being mentally fucked with by supreme evils. Cause if this is all entirely separate events--- that's just stupid. Stupid and repetitive and lazy.
And these people are on crack, thinking they could control soulless Angel.
And watching the last five minutes of this episode--- it almost contradicted the hihgly enjoyable 35 preceeding minutes. Because I was listening too them saying "Angelus, Angelus, Angelus" like he was a separate person (ironically, Angel is the only person who didn't say this, still referring to it all in first-person), and I kept thinking about Spike-post soul. Is he regarded as an entirely separate person even though he behaves radically different? No. He doesn't get a new, non-violent name. Nobody offers or even attempts to call him William in leiu of choosing a new one.
I think this can mean either two things, or possibly both:
1.) that in fact they are the same person w/ soul, and the SG is correct in the assumption of treating Spike like Spike and blaming him for his actions when he had no soul. This would logically mean that the LA gang (in assuming that Angelus is a separate, individual being within Angel--and Wesly ought to know better by now) is actually wrong and it's them that carry the misconception of what a soul means.
2.) the LA group is right, and the demon and the man are entirely separate, individual creatures in one body, capable of thinking independantly of one another. In which case Spike is now a total innocent, and the SG need to stop treating him liek the guy who killed people for 125 years & tried to rape Buffy, and start treating him like a *new* person, the way Dawn was "new".
Or... the most illogical answer, but probably what we'll be forced to assume:
3.) That the LA gang is right AND the BtVS gang is right: either because Spike is a "special" vampire, whose inner person is the same be it driven by soul or demon, and all vampires are like Angel; or the opposite-- that Angel is special with his double-personality thing, and all other vampires would be like Spike-- the same person, only driven by different desires when in a state of soul or lack of soul.
Either way, it's irritating. I knew this kind of thing would happen thinking about it post-Grave: that Spike wouldn't be given the tabula rasa that Angel was. And maybe it's better that he wasn't, because at least this way Spike's more knowledgable about his own entire inner self (all sides) than Angel, and Buffy is too, and thus she understands Spike better. It becomes what it is for Spike now: acceptance of change/growth rather than denying the sinner entirely (Angel).
However, in Angel's case it means everyone treats him like a different person, and convinces him he doesn't need to feel guilty because it wasn't him--- whether he agrees on this point or not. And I don't know that this necessarily means Angel got the better deal-- if Angelus really IS part of who Angel is, a dark part of him, the PERSON, then surely it's got to be healthier for him to accept that, and not for the people around him to pretend that it's different if it's not.
And isn't the fact significant that Angel's character from the very beginning of being written in the show was portrayed calling himself "Angel", not "Liam" or "Lee" or "William", meaning that he feels he is closer to who Angelus was than to who Liam was? If he really feels inside that he's not the same person like everyone says he's not, then wouldn't he have chosen to cast off the name of the demon as soon as he got his body back, in an effort to distance himself from what "he" didn't really do?
After the soul, for vampires, is it blank slate, or acceptance?
I don't know which way is better, or which is less painful, but I just wish they'd all pick one and be consistant.
Either both S&A "have souls" and thus are both uniformly forgiven and not held responsible, or they both are just the same demons w/ some new guilt button, and should be blamed for their ALL actions.
Is consistancy and logic no longer trendy?
That being said, evil Angel is neat, and fun to watch.
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no subject
Date: 2003-01-23 03:40 am (UTC)I'm not surprised, and I can sorta understand why, at least, with regards to the SG's reactions. Thing is, they knew Angel very well before he lost his soul. They accepted him and knew what kind of person he was. So when he became Angelus and his personality changed so drastically, they were able to differentiate between the two. They saw him as almost literally a different person. That's partly why the resouled Angel in S3 was more easily forgiven. Plus, I think we're meant to assume that his penance was his 20th century of brooding. Spike's only had eight months.
You also have to factor in the SG's history with Spike. With a few exceptions, their experiences with him (Buffy aside) haven't been good, and they don't have a frame of reference where they can see the true good in Spike. "Intervention" was an important one, as was much of his behavior in S6, but remember -- he came into contact with them so rarely last year that they probably know nothing of how he'd changed, and then you have the Anya and SR things. He actively tried to kill them in S4, via Adam. He still took money for helping them out as recently as mid-S5. As much as I love Spike, I can see why the Scoobies might not be on the Spike Love Bus. Imagine your worst adversary and thorn in your side suddenly does something that should mean you're supposed to forgive and forget. I'd have a hard time of it too. If Saddam Hussain showed up on CNN tonight and said, "I love America now. I want to help you and work together to make the world a better place," I'd demand to see him in action before I trusted him.
That said, I do think they should give Spike the same treatment as they have Angel, but I can understand the reasons. Another factor is that Souled Spike isn't markedly different from Unsouled Spike, aside from the depression and insanity. When Buffy said in "Potential" that he had no free will, that was her first real attempt to accept that Spike wouldn't have killed those people if he *had* been in control. He's only now at a point where he has to start proving that he will *act* on the side of good without restraints, because that chip's looking pretty erratic these days. The Scoobies basically trust him, but they need to see continuing proof.
I think that "free will" thing is the key. Spike needs to show the world that, if given the opportunity, he will choose not to kill. We've believe that of him for a while now, but before the soul he wasn't in a position to have it be a choice.
As for what you say above -- I generally agree with you. But I can also see why it's not as easy for Spike as for Angel. Sorry if I'm making no sense. Far too little sleep lately ;)
(And I agree that the Angel-isn't-Angelus thing is a copout. Ugh.)
Re:
Date: 2003-01-23 03:09 pm (UTC)Free will is definitely the key. My biggest dream way back in the beginning of season 6 was to see Spike lose the chip entirely and choose not to be evil, but Buffyverse lore says that even then it wouldn't happen because you can't have free will (meaning-"human" will) if you're driven only by demonic nature. By winning a soul Spike essentially earned his free will--and you're right, the others deserve to see what he's going to do with that free will before they trust him. Too bad that's been so hard to tell lately with everyone pulling his strings.
Spike's got less free will than anyone else on the show right now-- instead of just having a human soul to live by, he's got a soul, a demon, a chip, AND the big Evil mucking with his head. Hopefully that last one is over now. And if we're lucky the ship might get taken out too-- but that's something I feel will only occur in fanfiction, at this point. To bad, because then he'd almsot have that "free will" he's strived so hard for.
no subject
Date: 2003-01-23 03:38 pm (UTC)As far as the other thing- shit, I don't even think Joss knows. I just want Angel and Spike to sit down and chat about it. Yea. Like that's gonna happen.
Re:
Date: 2003-01-23 03:50 pm (UTC)Damn! You know what that means, don't you? Now I *have* to keep up with this incestuaous habbit I've developed--actually watching Angel. I thought I could just see a few eps and then get over it, and not wath it again for a year, like I always have before. But hearing that, I'm forced to become emotionally invested. :sigh:
As far as the other thing- shit, I don't even think Joss knows. I just want Angel and Spike to sit down and chat about it.
You and me both. And probably the rest of the entire Buffy fanbase as well.