Male leads in romance novels vs. fanfic

[timepiececlock]

I'm almost halfway through the Key of Light in audiobook format by Nora Roberts, and I'm enjoying it. I don't think I've ever read Nora Roberts before, but she's good. I can see why people like her. Her narrative is smooth, and she builds decent characters. Good dialog.

The story is a little cheesy, but that's okay.

One thing that I forgot, not having read a real "romance" genre book for a long time, is how perfect all the characters are. Especially the men. There's like a set of perfect "types" and all male characters must fit one of those types, and in addition they must be independantly successful, handsome, charming, and nice but not too nice.

Sometimes fanfiction makes you forget what certain book tropes are like, because you end up reading romance stories for what in the actual show are minor side characters, and thus sometimes you end up reading about people who aren't so perfect because they're not the main heroes, but in fanfic they can get their epic romances too.

Kinda spoils you, actually. Now I'm reading about this male character Flinn, who runs a newspaper and has a big dog and is a reporter/editor and decent and noble and sexy, and they just introduced his childhood friend who inherited the family company and is wealthy and sexy and handsome and "the family prince", and I have to roll my eyes.

I mean, these days I'm writing/reading romantic fanfic about male characters that are:

1) a socially retarded, introspective, perverted, and probably clinically depressed ninja assassin whose sense of self-worth is defined by his job

2) a selfish teenage exiled royal with serious anger problems whose face was mutilated so badly by fire that his eye and ear on one side are deformed, in a way that no one would ever call pretty or handsome.

3) an alien who can't stand to stay on the same planet for more than a week and jumps through space and time and is afraid to be intimate and probably has a God complex and definitely has a superiority complex (although he also good and true mostly nice and very fun to be around).


In terms of character importance in their respective series, that's one minor character, one regular supporting character, and one lead character. Naruto, Avatar:TLA, and Doctor Who, respectively. None of them are exactly ideal or stellar examples of what lead characters in a romance novel would be. Interesting how fandom has altered and shaped our tastes, isn't it?

The last romance book where I fell in love with a "perfect" male lead was The Time Traveller's wife, and that probably had more to do with the fact that he was a librarian who had time-travelling adventures as much as the fact that he was supposed to be attractive and charming. I do have a weakness for Indiana Jones-style adventure geeks.

Comments

[sub-divided.livejournal.com]

Who's the Naruto character? I've been staring at your description and I just can't figure it out.

[sub-divided.livejournal.com]

Oh wait, that's Sai, isn't it?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Would Number 1 be Kakashi?

And I totally agree about getting spoiled for imperfect characters. And it's a hard line to walk: how do you make a character flawed but likable, tormented yet not comedic in their pain?

But I think most romance writers, and Nora Roberts in particular aren't trying.

(That said, are you have you read her In Death books? She's always better when she's writing as JD Robb, and had a secondary couple that I like better than the main one, precisely because they are so much more flawed and likable.)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's Kakashi, but in reality it could be any of about 5 characters in Naruto, since there are a lot of similar characters there, and a lot of them are only seen in their ninja capacity and not in a personal light. I'm having to basically make up Kakashi's personality outside of ninja mission stuff because that's pretty much all he does in the series, and we don't know about his personal life.

Well, I am behind a bit in the manga, but I think given that I've already read more than 300 chapters it's unlikely anything will change at this point.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I've never read her before. I am only listening to this one because I got a bunch of upload links from LJ comm audiobooklovers before they were taken down, and this was linked. I still have most of those links, and they're actually still fairly open/active. I got the "key" trilogy that way, but no others by her.


Yep, that's Hatake Kakashi! I like to write him as comedic on the surface but a ball of unhealthy dark underneath.

[sureasdawn.livejournal.com]

Agreed, wholeheartedly. Crushing on the side characters has always been something I've been guilty of. Kakashi and Zuko are particular favorites, though I find Dr. Who to be too intimidating to start in on.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Doctor Who is easy to start with if you begin with the 2005 series, which is season 1 in the "new" show but technically season 27 if you count all the canon over the last 40 years.

I've only seen maybe two or three old episodes of DW, and the tv movie of the 8th Doctor from 1996, which is the last canon show until the new series starts in 2005. You don't *need* to watch any of the old stuff, not at all, but you may find yourself interested after you catch up on recent episodes.

The seasons are only 13 episodes long each, plus an annual Christmas Special that bridges the seasons, so they're relatively quick to go through-- only half the length of a normal U.S. tv season.

If you're curious, I recommend DW with all my heart. All though I make light of the Doctor's angst/weirdness in the post above, most of the show is light, happy, campy fun. It's like tv candy. It's like a caramel apple. It is good, because you can enjoy it as light tv or you can read between the lines and obsess about the darker implications of the characters. It has strong female characters and while it's wild and crazy and not every eccentric storyline works, the whole is always fun.

Doctor Who is just so likable and addictive that it feels like a breath of fresh air in comparison to so many heavier shows. It's cheeky, and cute, and full of angst, and has a phenomenal het romance if you're into that.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's a pretty accurate description of Kakashi.

I remember realizing that -oh, wait- one of his first notable talents was for assassination, he made notable rank at a very young age, and that's before we even get into his angsty backstory.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

What both amuses and frustrates me about Kakashi, and about a lot of the characters in Naruto, is that we can get all this detailed backstory about tragic historic events that shaped a person, but those events deal specifically with their history as a ninja and we still might know next-to-nothing about their day to day personal lives. This is the worst with Kakashi. The most significant two facts we know for sure about his adult life, on an individual personal level, are that 1) he grieves almost religiously, 2) he reads erotica.

What is his house like? What are his personal habits? What does he like or dislike? How is he with his peers as opposed to with the genin/chunin? All the scenes we see with him usually involve being a ninja. Either working, fighting, or teaching. And he's very closed off with the genin, too. We know way more about Naruto, Sakura, the other genins, than we do about Kakashi.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

he made notable rank at a very young age

:D Fans make a big fuss that Itachi was chuunin at 8 and ANBU at 13, but Kakashi was a chuunin at 6, which to me makes him, like, cooler than Itachi. Not that there's an official cool contest there, but if there were, he'd still be the coolest.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I'm over here laughing at the very idea that there could ever be a contest between Itachi and Kakashi. Because Kakashi pwns that hardcore.

Agreed, however, about the various ages. I'm amazed that it is even possible to be a chuunin that young. Also, do we know when he started working with ANBU?

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

That is a very good point. On the one hand, I'm glad that the mangaka doesn't tell us more, simply because I've been burned too many times by canon that doesn't compute in my head, but in Naruto's case, it seems like they air way to far on the side of not showing.

And you have a really good point about the focus on being a ninja - I think that's part of the world as a whole - who you are as a ninja, and how who you are forms you as a ninja are all the characterization needed. I mean, really, do we get THAT MUCH MORE information about other characters? Like, do we ever see Sakura's house or family? Or even her relaxing and not simply waiting for either Sasuke or Naruto to enter the scene? I'm not saying you're not right, because I think you are, I'm simply mentioning that not telling us what he should seems like a large part of the mangaka's weaknesses as a writer.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Would this be the appropriate time to gently encourage you to write more on your Sakura/Kakashi fic?

[sureasdawn.livejournal.com]

My husband has been trying to get me to watch it with him. I refused on the basis, that when I was very young (say twenty-five years or so ago) I used to watch the show on PBS with my mother (I don't remember much of anything now), and something that happened on one of the episodes terrified me so much I still have feelings of dread from the vague memory.

I really should give it a try, usually I like that sort of thing and het romance is very much of interest to me.

Thanks for the info!

[vickiso.livejournal.com]

It's funny that you mention this because it's true, fanfiction heroes are totally different from romance novel heroes--the typical alpha male, as you describe, has to be someone you want to fall in love with, whereas in fanfic, people seem to gravitate toward heroes we can help fix--people who are seriously flawed.

Which is not to say romance heroes don't have flaws--but they're not insurmountable. In fact, after 60,000 words, those flaws HAVE to be resolved, or the happily ever after ending won't work.

I have that problem with my heroes--I want to make them "real" but publishers don't buy reality--they buy romance.

Sigh...I'll have to figure out how to make a Zuko-esque character more likable, I guess....

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

You can tell your editor that people are attracted to human beings that are a work-in-progress, not a finished and shiny result. :D From one disgruntled romance reader directly to his/her ears.

In fact, after 60,000 words, those flaws HAVE to be resolved, or the happily ever after ending won't work.

I feel like, though, that they DON'T have to be completely resolved. Like, the major flaws that inhibit the relationship from occurring should be resolved, but it's okay and normal if the some of character's flaws continue even after the romance is in progress. It's part of having fully-fleshed out characters. And I don't just mean "personality" flaws that are also seen as benefits, like "he talks too much" or "she's too bossy." Those obviously are never going to change, but it's okay if the two people at the end of the story aren't quite "settled" and "perfect" yet. I'm probably spoiled for this because of fandom, but I feel like I identify better now with characters who aren't settled and perfect even at the end of the day. Because I'm not.

the typical alpha male, as you describe, has to be someone you want to fall in love with, whereas in fanfic, people seem to gravitate toward heroes we can help fix--people who are seriously flawed.

"heroes we can help fix" is a perfect way of describing a lot of the more popular "types" that people write fanfic about, especially the male characters. We do love our woobies, especially if they come with floppy hair. I also like that about female characters too; I liked it about Buffy, and I like it about Sarah Connor (Terminator), and I although I'm on/off with BSG, I know there are lot of Starbuck fans on my flist.


Funny enough, one of the classic romantic novels, Wuthering Heights, had Heathcliffe as an extremely "flawed" main character, but instead of embracing that, me and my entire AP English class thought he was a scary abusive stalker psycho. My teacher was like, "None of you found him dark and attractive?" And we were all... "...No. Serious no."

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

HEATHCLIFFE. Oh God. Why. Seriously? Why. Allegedly he's attractive to 16-year-old girls, but most of the people I've talked to who read WH when they were sixteen disagree wholeheartedly. Creepy creepy creepy face.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I think I was 17 when we read it.

A got a kick out of the book itself (I liked it better than Jane Eyre) because it was so over the top with the EPIC DRAMA OF EPICNESS and of course the pretty language. But I was never at all attracted to Heathcliffe.

hey old comment

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I remember reading this great Buffy fic once, I can't remember who it was by or what it was called, but it was set between season 5 and 6, and one great scene had Spike, drunk, yelling and kicking at Buffy's gravestone while reciting a monologue by Heathcliffe from a similar Wuthering Heights scene. It was funny and sad. I wish I could remember which that was...

hey old comment #2

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

OMG I freaking found it. It's chapter four of the fic, but the whole fic is great. I don't think it's finished, though. Still, I love that author, who also did one of my favorite BTVS fics called "Love Lies Bleeding."

Re: hey old comment #2

[jade-sabre-301.livejournal.com]

MMMM there is nothing I like better than old fanfic for awesome fandoms. :-D