min-BtVS essay
Nov. 3rd, 2002 12:11 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlockAt Crumbling Walls someone brought up a question about souls, in vampires and in other demons, and the "does Anya have a soul?" question, and buffy killing demons who possibly have souls like humans, and such.
This was part of the question: What about Demons? Since demons are also 'Evil' beings, then they cannot possess souls either, ne? But why is it that demons seem to have it one up on the ladder over Vampires?
And this is my response to whole thing:
I think that what we're meant to take out of the show is that Buffy has no way of knowing who among the demons has a soul or not... so she must judge who to hunt or kill by the damage they do or teh danger to humanity that they present. The most viscous, evil demon on the planet could walk into Sunnydale, and if he didn't call attention to himself, Buffy wouldn't touch him. This is practical both in numbers (there's too many for one girl to kill them all) and in the sake of Buffy's sanity-- she can't be expected to act as judge and jury for every demon she kills--Buffy's task is that of the executioner. And because she is human, her loyalty is to the human race, not always to what's 'right'. So she kills the threat. And if the demon ends up having a soul, or having a worthy, reasonable reason for what they're doing that's wrong-- too bad, Buffy has to put humanity first, above all else. This is why she killed Angel, and this is what she was trying to explain to Xander in Selfless.
I think vampires are different in that regard though, because everything Buffy has learned, everything the Watchers have learned, and everything we've seen as canon says that ALL vampires become soulless when they are turned. It makes a sort of sense-- vampires are clearly the most prevalent type of demon on Earth... all the other demons on the shows, we don't see very much of. Usually no more than 1 or 2, or possibly one 'clan' or 'group'... but vamps are EVERYWHERE in Buffyverse. Among other demons, the presence of a 'soul' or lack thereof may be a toss up, but they're multiple races so there's no reason they should all be the same. Vampires are the same race, and they're the same in their soulless state. The only two vampires who'd changed that did so out of direct intervention by a second party-- the gypsies, and Lurky's reward.
Buffy didn't come after Anya until Anya still proved herself a threat to Buffy's fellow humans. Does Anya have a soul? When Anya offered her life to D'Hoffran, he said he needed "the life and soul of a vengeance demon." Then he took Halfrek's.
Now, this can mean one of two things:
a) that demons have souls, but they're not "human souls", they're "demon souls" instead, or their human souls become demon souls...this would explain why vampires and demons like Anya retain their pre-death personalties to such a high level.
b) that vengeance demons retained their souls the whole time, and never lost it like vampires did. This makes more sense to me, because Anya didn't feel any crushing weight of guilt after becoming human the first time. But that begs the question: how could she be so evil if she has a human soul still? I liken it to Willow, and her conversation about power with Anya in Same Time, Same Place. Willow mentioned about how the power takes you over, until its controlling you. Willow did spectacular damage while still keeping her soul-- just like Anya. And like Anya, it was a power ignited & driven by extreme pain/anger/grief. Anya was so hurt by her husband betraying her, that she lashed out, and when more power made itself available, she took that too, and made it her life. Willow was so hurt by Tara's murder, that she lashed out, and when she found more power, she took that in too, until it controlled her and it was all she thought about.
So when Anya was changed to a human, she did not 'receive' a soul, because she already had one. But being around humans again and loving Xander allowed her to let go of the hardness of her heart, and to remember what it was like to feel for others. When she was left at the altar she became a demon again and tried to regain that sense of removal from humanity, to be desensitized agian. But it didn't work, because she still loved Xander and she had learned to love humanity again as well.
Now Spike... even if you don't think it was presented well or believably, what season 6 was upposed to tell us was that vampires can't be good, because they are soulless. They can love and they can feel, but by not having a soul, they lack the self-control to truly know right from wrong (not just knowing what 'supposed' to be right or wrong, but actually UNDERSTANDING the difference...watch Seeing Red), and lacked the empathy for other humans that allowed them to understand the IMPORTANCE of knowing the difference (watch Dead Things).
However, what we can also get from Season 6 is the proof that vampires who have the desire and the will to change, can. But the only way to do it is to get a soul. Until they do that, they're still sub-human. Spike, of his own mind, instigated that change in his being, his self. Season six said that vampires have potentil, but potential is not the same thing as achievement, and unless they act on that potential as Spike did, vampires are evil, and _not_ _human_.
In the mind & heart, the soul has made Spike human instead of sub-human. Compared to other humans, his vampire body makes no difference, not any more than the difference between a black person and a white person-- they're all the same inside. And now Spike is too. He and Buff are equals, on a cosmic-judgement point of view. Of course, Spike has loads of guilt and is responsible for many more deaths than Buffy, so he's not an innocent by any means... but he's a person now. With as much tendency towards good or bad any human. Until he chooses to kill or hurt someone deliberately, he's no more "evil" than Buffy. Note that "guilty" is not the same as "evil." In fact, at the moment Willow qualifies more as "evil" than Spike does... because she made that choice to harm other "persons" deliberately, and with her soul influencing her. But Spike is more "guilty" than Willow is, because in the end, he caused more deaths. Although, if Willow had succeeded in destroying Earth, she would have topped Spike in that area too. It was only Xander's influence that saved her from being guilty of that as well.
This was part of the question: What about Demons? Since demons are also 'Evil' beings, then they cannot possess souls either, ne? But why is it that demons seem to have it one up on the ladder over Vampires?
And this is my response to whole thing:
I think that what we're meant to take out of the show is that Buffy has no way of knowing who among the demons has a soul or not... so she must judge who to hunt or kill by the damage they do or teh danger to humanity that they present. The most viscous, evil demon on the planet could walk into Sunnydale, and if he didn't call attention to himself, Buffy wouldn't touch him. This is practical both in numbers (there's too many for one girl to kill them all) and in the sake of Buffy's sanity-- she can't be expected to act as judge and jury for every demon she kills--Buffy's task is that of the executioner. And because she is human, her loyalty is to the human race, not always to what's 'right'. So she kills the threat. And if the demon ends up having a soul, or having a worthy, reasonable reason for what they're doing that's wrong-- too bad, Buffy has to put humanity first, above all else. This is why she killed Angel, and this is what she was trying to explain to Xander in Selfless.
I think vampires are different in that regard though, because everything Buffy has learned, everything the Watchers have learned, and everything we've seen as canon says that ALL vampires become soulless when they are turned. It makes a sort of sense-- vampires are clearly the most prevalent type of demon on Earth... all the other demons on the shows, we don't see very much of. Usually no more than 1 or 2, or possibly one 'clan' or 'group'... but vamps are EVERYWHERE in Buffyverse. Among other demons, the presence of a 'soul' or lack thereof may be a toss up, but they're multiple races so there's no reason they should all be the same. Vampires are the same race, and they're the same in their soulless state. The only two vampires who'd changed that did so out of direct intervention by a second party-- the gypsies, and Lurky's reward.
Buffy didn't come after Anya until Anya still proved herself a threat to Buffy's fellow humans. Does Anya have a soul? When Anya offered her life to D'Hoffran, he said he needed "the life and soul of a vengeance demon." Then he took Halfrek's.
Now, this can mean one of two things:
a) that demons have souls, but they're not "human souls", they're "demon souls" instead, or their human souls become demon souls...this would explain why vampires and demons like Anya retain their pre-death personalties to such a high level.
b) that vengeance demons retained their souls the whole time, and never lost it like vampires did. This makes more sense to me, because Anya didn't feel any crushing weight of guilt after becoming human the first time. But that begs the question: how could she be so evil if she has a human soul still? I liken it to Willow, and her conversation about power with Anya in Same Time, Same Place. Willow mentioned about how the power takes you over, until its controlling you. Willow did spectacular damage while still keeping her soul-- just like Anya. And like Anya, it was a power ignited & driven by extreme pain/anger/grief. Anya was so hurt by her husband betraying her, that she lashed out, and when more power made itself available, she took that too, and made it her life. Willow was so hurt by Tara's murder, that she lashed out, and when she found more power, she took that in too, until it controlled her and it was all she thought about.
So when Anya was changed to a human, she did not 'receive' a soul, because she already had one. But being around humans again and loving Xander allowed her to let go of the hardness of her heart, and to remember what it was like to feel for others. When she was left at the altar she became a demon again and tried to regain that sense of removal from humanity, to be desensitized agian. But it didn't work, because she still loved Xander and she had learned to love humanity again as well.
Now Spike... even if you don't think it was presented well or believably, what season 6 was upposed to tell us was that vampires can't be good, because they are soulless. They can love and they can feel, but by not having a soul, they lack the self-control to truly know right from wrong (not just knowing what 'supposed' to be right or wrong, but actually UNDERSTANDING the difference...watch Seeing Red), and lacked the empathy for other humans that allowed them to understand the IMPORTANCE of knowing the difference (watch Dead Things).
However, what we can also get from Season 6 is the proof that vampires who have the desire and the will to change, can. But the only way to do it is to get a soul. Until they do that, they're still sub-human. Spike, of his own mind, instigated that change in his being, his self. Season six said that vampires have potentil, but potential is not the same thing as achievement, and unless they act on that potential as Spike did, vampires are evil, and _not_ _human_.
In the mind & heart, the soul has made Spike human instead of sub-human. Compared to other humans, his vampire body makes no difference, not any more than the difference between a black person and a white person-- they're all the same inside. And now Spike is too. He and Buff are equals, on a cosmic-judgement point of view. Of course, Spike has loads of guilt and is responsible for many more deaths than Buffy, so he's not an innocent by any means... but he's a person now. With as much tendency towards good or bad any human. Until he chooses to kill or hurt someone deliberately, he's no more "evil" than Buffy. Note that "guilty" is not the same as "evil." In fact, at the moment Willow qualifies more as "evil" than Spike does... because she made that choice to harm other "persons" deliberately, and with her soul influencing her. But Spike is more "guilty" than Willow is, because in the end, he caused more deaths. Although, if Willow had succeeded in destroying Earth, she would have topped Spike in that area too. It was only Xander's influence that saved her from being guilty of that as well.
