define irony? Come on you fellow booklovers... debate time!

[timepiececlock]

I got into a mini-debate with my History of Western Civ professor today.

The topic: Greek tragedies

The point of discussion: Is irony a recognizable element or theme in Greek tragedies, literarily speaking?

I say yes. He didn't really see how irony was part of the tragedy formula.

I brought up Oedipus. The guy leaves his family for fear of killing his father and ends up killing his father anyway, because "father" it turns out is a debateable word. And his parents sent him away for fear of him killing his father only to have him grow up and kill him in circumstances resulting from sending him away.

How is that stuff anything BUT ironic?

Also, the fact that the Greek Tragic Hero's tragic flaw is also typically his greatest virtue/asset is in itself ironic. It's an irony built into the nature of Greek tragedy.

I ended up telling him that yes, Greek tragedies usually include literary irony. He asked if I could elaborate.

Here's where my rolling ball dropped like a bomb and my memory failed me.

I could only remember one type of literary irony, and I distinctly remember being taught in many lit classes that there were at least 3 or 4 categories of irony in literature. I told him I couldn't remember. He said that when I did he'd be interested in hearing more, and could I bring a list?

I said I definitely would. And then he went back to teaching and half of the rest of the class gave me a weird look.

Here's how you can help!

What are the forms of irony in literature?

The only one I can remember at the moment is when the audience knows what the characters do not know.

I know there are more types. Y'all are well-read folks. Help?


EDIT: thisficklemob, evemac, spicedrum and pepperlandgirl4, you gals kick ass. Thank for the help! I've got a veritable arsenal to take with me to class on Monday. I am *so* going to win this discussion. I already have; he just doesn't know it yet.

Comments

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know if this is the sort you mean, but one kind of irony is if you say one thing but mean another. E.g., "I come to not to praise Caesar, but to bury him." And there's situational irony, which I believe is the kind you already have.

You wanna know what's more ironic about Oedipus? In the version we read for class, which may have been by Sophocles, our professor pointed out that Oedipus decides he's killed his father and married his mother, based on circumstantial evidence, but we don't know that he actually has. It's a thing he does to himself, this torment, but it may not even be founded.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Oedipus decides he's killed his father and married his mother, based on circumstantial evidence, but we don't know that he actually has. It's a thing he does to himself, this torment, but it may not even be founded.

That's a good point. Though to take the opposite stance, I would say that while Oedipus is a play where things are not as they seem, I think to a degree you have to take certain things as basic truths, or canon, because a play is a lot less detailed than a book if you question too much of what they give you then you have no story. Um... I'm not explaining this well. What I mean is I think you have to accept certain things you are told as canon that you are meant to accept as true and literal, such as the fact that the man he killed on the road was in fact the king and that Oedipus did in fact do it. The point is not whether or not he killed him, but the resulting emotional from finding out his relationship to him.

I'm sure you know that too, though. It was a good point your prof bought up.

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

True. But our prof seemed to think there was a lot of playing with canon that even the "original" playwrights did. Because everyone knows the story of Oedipus already... so they have to give it their own spin. We read one play, Helen, where Helen of Troy is revealed to have really been in Egypt during the whole Trojan War – the Helen that got fought over in Troy was a copy created by Hera. So Helen really was faithful, and reunited with her husband, and all that. It felt really fanficky to me – retcon! Whee!

In another case, they have this big crisis where one guy is about to kill this girl, until a goddess comes down and says, "wait wait, your best friend is going to marry her." And critics have blasted this play as completely implausible forever, but my prof was like... there are certain things that happen, that MUST happen, because they are set in the mythology. By making it so very blatant that deus ex machina was needed, he may be commenting on the device and mocking other plays, as well as technically playing by the rules.

The point is not whether or not he killed him, but the resulting emotional from finding out his relationship to him.

Exactly. But in this particular play, the prof thought it was interesting how quickly he leapt to that conclusion, on how little evidence. So it doesn't undermine "canon", but it also leaves it open as to whether the patricide and incest even happened.

[evemac.livejournal.com]

Dramatic irony, situational irony, verbal irony.

Dramatic is when the audience knows something the characters don't. Situational is "the wrong thing at the wrong time", like Murphy's Law. Verbal is saying something and meaning the other.

Greek tragedies are walking examples of each of those.

Hope that helps! :)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

thanks, it does.

Greek tragedies are walking examples of each of those.

I thought so too. So when he asked "What do you think of when you think of "a Greek tragedy" and I said "irony" and he didn't see my point I was kinda flummoxed. Seemed obvious to me.

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

There's dramatic, situation, Socratic, Sophoclean, Tragic, unconscious, and verbal.

Irony--a contrast of some sort. For instance, in verbal iroy and Socratic Irony, the contrast is between what is said and what is meant. "You're a great guy" meant bitterly). In dramatic irony or Sophoclean irony--also called tragic irony--the contrast is between what is inteded and what is accomplished (macbeth usurps the throne, thinking he will then be happy, but the action leads him to misery.) or between what the audience knows and what a character says.

That's from An Introduction to Literature Thirteenth Edition. Barnet, Burto, and Cain.

Basically, Greek tragedy is ironic, by the very definition of irony.

I have $10 that says your teacher doesn't even know what irony is. Most people think it's "shitty coincidence" like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife. He probably doesn't realize it has a different definition, and so, argues things that makes him look like a fool. Isn't it ironic? (I used that ironically.)

[spicedrum.livejournal.com]

Isn't it ironic? (I used that ironically.)

hee!

(I love when people dog on Alannis for that bs song of hers.)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I actually thought about "ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife" during that discussion but decided reciting it might be cute for my peers but would not help my arguement. Not that I took long to come to that conclusion.

Still... that song is so sing-able! Don't knock the catchy tune.

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

Just to be thorough because now I'm all annoyed and shit.

From Introduction to Literature pg 984

What we are talking about is tragic irony, the contrast between what is believed to be so and what is so, or between epectations and accomplishments. (Tragic irony is sometimes dramatic irony or Sophoclean irony. The terms are often applied to actions that the audeince understand in a sense fuller than or different from the sense in which the dramatic characters understands them). Several examples from Macbeth illustrate something of the range of tragic irony with a single play.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I have $10 that says your teacher doesn't even know what irony is.

Damn, there goes my thought of printing out this page to show him. :D

Thanks for the specific quotes, though! I found this lit book that I bought for a class and never used called "A Glossary of Literary Terms" and I'm going to copy pages from that and give it to him. I think I'll cut your quotes and past onto a word document since you were so kind as to provide sources and all.

I'm actually surprised that he wouldn't know all this already, considering I've had to read 3 literature pieces in this class in addition to our normal history textbook:

Gilgamesh
The Oddyssey
A History of the Pelopennsian War by Thucydides, which we're currently on right now.

He's also talked about Beowulf. I've taken basic general ed writing classes and three lit elective classes-- one on Shakespeare, one on poetry, and one on British Medeival & Rennaisance Lit. And high school.

If I know all this, how come he doesn't? He's got to have had more education than me.

Oh well, maybe he misunderstood. I've not found any fault with his teaching knowledge before-- I've perceived him to be a pretty smart guy and a decent prof. Oh well. He *is* a history teacher and not a lit teacher.

[mrthursday.livejournal.com]

I have to say for the most part I back your proffessor.
There only ironic to the modern mindset, which tends to be existentailist in tis philosophical outlook and dramatic output (modern tradgy is about bad choices, not consequences for actions you can't avoid because they are willed by uncaring gods).
To the greeks it was not Ironic that Oedipus ended up killing his father, it was fate, destiny the inescapable will of the gods.
The whole audience was expecting it the moment they heard the prophecy in the first place (even if they didn't know the story before they went to the play)and because there is no escape from these things in greek Tragic plays, I don't think you could call this Irony in the same way as say Macbeth.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Awww. Can I copy & paste that when I present him my def? It's good to include an opposing opinion. Though I don't think I entirely agree.

[mrthursday.livejournal.com]

I see no reason why not.
I say I only mostly back him There is after all nothing wrong with interpting the play as "ironic", i just think it si only so to the modern mind.