define irony? Come on you fellow booklovers... debate time!

[timepiececlock]

I got into a mini-debate with my History of Western Civ professor today.

The topic: Greek tragedies

The point of discussion: Is irony a recognizable element or theme in Greek tragedies, literarily speaking?

I say yes. He didn't really see how irony was part of the tragedy formula.

I brought up Oedipus. The guy leaves his family for fear of killing his father and ends up killing his father anyway, because "father" it turns out is a debateable word. And his parents sent him away for fear of him killing his father only to have him grow up and kill him in circumstances resulting from sending him away.

How is that stuff anything BUT ironic?

Also, the fact that the Greek Tragic Hero's tragic flaw is also typically his greatest virtue/asset is in itself ironic. It's an irony built into the nature of Greek tragedy.

I ended up telling him that yes, Greek tragedies usually include literary irony. He asked if I could elaborate.

Here's where my rolling ball dropped like a bomb and my memory failed me.

I could only remember one type of literary irony, and I distinctly remember being taught in many lit classes that there were at least 3 or 4 categories of irony in literature. I told him I couldn't remember. He said that when I did he'd be interested in hearing more, and could I bring a list?

I said I definitely would. And then he went back to teaching and half of the rest of the class gave me a weird look.

Here's how you can help!

What are the forms of irony in literature?

The only one I can remember at the moment is when the audience knows what the characters do not know.

I know there are more types. Y'all are well-read folks. Help?


EDIT: thisficklemob, evemac, spicedrum and pepperlandgirl4, you gals kick ass. Thank for the help! I've got a veritable arsenal to take with me to class on Monday. I am *so* going to win this discussion. I already have; he just doesn't know it yet.

Comments

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

There's dramatic, situation, Socratic, Sophoclean, Tragic, unconscious, and verbal.

Irony--a contrast of some sort. For instance, in verbal iroy and Socratic Irony, the contrast is between what is said and what is meant. "You're a great guy" meant bitterly). In dramatic irony or Sophoclean irony--also called tragic irony--the contrast is between what is inteded and what is accomplished (macbeth usurps the throne, thinking he will then be happy, but the action leads him to misery.) or between what the audience knows and what a character says.

That's from An Introduction to Literature Thirteenth Edition. Barnet, Burto, and Cain.

Basically, Greek tragedy is ironic, by the very definition of irony.

I have $10 that says your teacher doesn't even know what irony is. Most people think it's "shitty coincidence" like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife. He probably doesn't realize it has a different definition, and so, argues things that makes him look like a fool. Isn't it ironic? (I used that ironically.)

[spicedrum.livejournal.com]

Isn't it ironic? (I used that ironically.)

hee!

(I love when people dog on Alannis for that bs song of hers.)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I actually thought about "ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife" during that discussion but decided reciting it might be cute for my peers but would not help my arguement. Not that I took long to come to that conclusion.

Still... that song is so sing-able! Don't knock the catchy tune.

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

Just to be thorough because now I'm all annoyed and shit.

From Introduction to Literature pg 984

What we are talking about is tragic irony, the contrast between what is believed to be so and what is so, or between epectations and accomplishments. (Tragic irony is sometimes dramatic irony or Sophoclean irony. The terms are often applied to actions that the audeince understand in a sense fuller than or different from the sense in which the dramatic characters understands them). Several examples from Macbeth illustrate something of the range of tragic irony with a single play.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I have $10 that says your teacher doesn't even know what irony is.

Damn, there goes my thought of printing out this page to show him. :D

Thanks for the specific quotes, though! I found this lit book that I bought for a class and never used called "A Glossary of Literary Terms" and I'm going to copy pages from that and give it to him. I think I'll cut your quotes and past onto a word document since you were so kind as to provide sources and all.

I'm actually surprised that he wouldn't know all this already, considering I've had to read 3 literature pieces in this class in addition to our normal history textbook:

Gilgamesh
The Oddyssey
A History of the Pelopennsian War by Thucydides, which we're currently on right now.

He's also talked about Beowulf. I've taken basic general ed writing classes and three lit elective classes-- one on Shakespeare, one on poetry, and one on British Medeival & Rennaisance Lit. And high school.

If I know all this, how come he doesn't? He's got to have had more education than me.

Oh well, maybe he misunderstood. I've not found any fault with his teaching knowledge before-- I've perceived him to be a pretty smart guy and a decent prof. Oh well. He *is* a history teacher and not a lit teacher.