it's late at night so I'm not gonna cut my LJ.

[timepiececlock]

I was thinking recently about typical "gender roles" in fantasty stories, anime, sci-fi, etc. And the way romance plays into that.

I loved the way Buffy made the hero a girl who is emotionally reserved and even cold-hearted at her worst moments, and took the guy and made him over-emotional, romantic, the believer who always wanted to "talk" about their relationship and where it was going. I loved that switch-- the way the men of BtVS play the more emotional, traditionally "female" roles of the relationships, while the women played the traditionally "male" roles. With nuances, of course. But that switch is something I find so interesting, most particularly in Buffy/Spike.

I was thinking about romance with enemies, too.

And I was thinking... wouldn't it be neat to have a story where the lead male is the protagonist, and he falls in love with the lead female, who is the archvillian. Not a redeemable flunky, the archvillain. The Big Bad. And she falls back in love with him, but not enough to stop her from being evil, as if love could stop one from being evil. Maybe one can do both. But the female would play the traditional male characteristics in the relationship, and the heroic male would have female characteristics.

It'd be like taking your normal female-centric-fantasty where she falls in love with a baddie: she's noble and stuff but still susceptible to his charms; he's mysterious and dark and can't choose between being evil and real love for the main girl.

Now switch them: the main emotional girl is now a guy, and the tall, dark and mysteriously sexy villian who might or might not feel some spark with the hero is now the woman.

And then get rid of the redeemable love factor--- she is the archvillain and remains so until the end. No redemption, not even half-way. She doesn't turn good... nevertheless she really *does* fall in love with him. It's presented as genuinely real, and he's the one who keeps wanting to persue it even though she's clearly evil and can't decide if she loves him or wants him dead.

And the hero really does fall in love with the villain. He doesn't fall for her then gradually fall for his female sidekick/friend and eventually realize that the one love is doomed while the other had promise--- no, his friend is only his friend and he really falls for his archenemy and then feels like complete shit when he has to win in the end, because even though he saves Townsville/the castle/the world etc, he can't change the love of his life to make her good, and he can't be bad for her, and would he even love her if she changed?

I feel like every time stories do romance between a villain and a hero, the villain is redeemable because he/she is the LittleBad, not the BigBad. And if the love interest villain becomes the Big Bad a la Angelus in season 2, then he is no longer the love interest (and he's not-- Buffy goes in without believing he's redeemable and that she can have him back as her lover Angel and believes instead that she's facing someone else, who isn't Angel and therefor not her lover.) But if you have something like the movie Labyrinth where the love interest villain *is* the Big Bad, then it's not so easy and there is no happy ending. But I've never seen that kind of love interest Big Bad be female.

Does this sound totally implausible to you guys? Like, "How could it be really real love if the person was irredeemable in the end and the hero was the good hearted person? Wouldn't a person that good of heart be repulsed by irrdeemable evil like most people?"

Or do you think it would make an interesting dynamic? A lead hero who acts like a lead heroine, in love with a lead villainess who acts like a lead villain.

Comments

[permetaform]

::whispers:: smallville. Clark = hero guy. Lex = irredemable villain.

well, except for the fact that *Lex* has always been the one to strengthen and hold together their relationship... ah wells.

[kimera.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm... One series of Power Rangers actually came very *close* to this. You had Zhane, Silver Ranger, and Astronema, kickass villainess, who fell head-over-heels with each other. Of course, it turns out that Astronema is really Zhane's best friend Andros' long-lost sister Karone, so of *course*, in the very last episode, Astronema dies, everyone cries, and suddenly she is revived- as Karone.

Of course, the next time we see Karone (halfway through the next series), Zhane is nowhere to be seen, so I wonder just what *that* says about their dynamic as a couple.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting idea. I think whether it's believeable depends on the details. Like in Labyrinth, the Big Bad was not so much evil as alien, possibly amoral -- but he keeps his promises, and he does it for her in the first place, because he doesn't get that humans sometimes wish for things they don't actually want. He's not beating the child or anything. That's not so inherently repulsive.

If your big bad is killing babies and puppies, maybe not so much. The trick is to come up with someone who's bad is sympathetic enough that the hero's feelings could get past it even if his brain doesn't approve, but not so sympathetic that it's not bad anymore.

The woman who's often portrayed this way is the Queen of the Fairies -- so unknowable, alien, and powerful as to be functionally evil, but still a seductive lover to the good knights and bards she takes. But she's usually too unchanging for it to really go anywhere -- there's no story if people don't change at least a little.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

The trick is to come up with someone who's bad is sympathetic enough that the hero's feelings could get past it even if his brain doesn't approve, but not so sympathetic that it's not bad anymore

Yeah. I'll need to think about that; I haven't yet. I want sympathetic and dynamic (because you're right that there has to be some change), but not to the point that love is the redeeming factor because that seems like the easy way out. Can it be real love without making the bad one into a better person or having her choose her love over doing evil? Are "true love" and being mortal enemies really mutually exclusive.

Like in Labyrinth, the Big Bad was not so much evil as alien, possibly amoral

You're right. I wanted to use that as an example where they don't get together in the end because she won, and it's not because he changed for her-- she just won.

I'm thinking more end-of-the-world/community type villain, which might allow for sympathy if there's less evil done in the process along the way and the only real evil is the final act.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Astronema dies, everyone cries, and suddenly she is revived- as Karone.

Ah, a kind of redemption via her "good" form being revived.

I'm just going to have an unhappy ending, I think. No revivals or last minute change of heart of the side of the villain. And she's just going to be bad, no secret inner or past good person.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

:g: Ah, but that's not canon babe. Too bad.

[brigidforest.livejournal.com]

see but in labyrinth she really wasn't in love with him. she was captivated by him at first, and when he fulfilled her wish he thought he'd make her happy, but she realized the error of her ways and that she was just a kid playing around. i don't think the labyrinth story has much to do with love really. it has to do with knowing that what you have is important instead wishing for some fairytale life, and the biggest cliche of all, be careful what you wish for.

i think that you're looking more at attraction than love. love is a very tricky thing. there's a, ugh i forget word, but there has been some women that fall in love with their kidnappers, enemies, whatever because this kind of sympathy. loving someone means seeing a good in them that no one else does. it means blindly hoping that they'll reveal that side to you that they haven't to anyone else. so to me, this doesn't seem quite plausible unless it's done in a extremely well-developped character and story. i mean beyond good. the thing is no one is entirely evil, and no one is entirely good. it's impossible. it's cliche.

just because they might find a good side to this enemy doesn't mean there has to be a good ending. evil is hard thing to overcome. no one wakes up and is good again in a flash (contrary to what disney tells us).

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

see but in labyrinth she really wasn't in love with him.

You're right... it's not a perfect comparison so don't read too much into the example. For this pupose I was using it to illustrate the purpose of "love interest." To be honest I don't even remember the film that well so I was drawing from memory.

That seems to be the example people are focusing on though, when really it wasn't that important to my post. Interesting.

just because they might find a good side to this enemy doesn't mean there has to be a good ending. evil is hard thing to overcome. no one wakes up and is good again in a flash (contrary to what disney tells us).

That's exactly what I would be looking at-- not totally evil, but evil enough that she can't be perfectly redeemed by love. Like all those movies/books/anime/stories where you have enemies in love, and at the last moment the villain does something heroic before they die that allows the hero to win the day. That seems like the cliche easy way out to me.

thing is no one is entirely evil

Well that depends on how you build your storyline. For example, in the first two seasons of BtVS, vampires are irredeemably totally evil. Even Angel is only good in a way that reinforces the rule of demons=total evil. It took until season 4 onward for the show to shift toward a more grey area point of view. So one could have a villain or villanous force that is entirely evil, if you set your story up that way. Lord of The Rings, for example.

Not that I plan to do that, but I wanted to point out it can and has been done.