(no subject)

[timepiececlock]

I had someone on the Adult Swim board today tell me emphatically that Inu Yasha and Ranma 1/2 were shounen anime.

Let's stop and think about this. Now, "shonen" anime means "boy" anime. Intended for young-adult or teen male audiences.

For example, Naruto. Dragonball Z. Anything Gundam.

But IY or Ranma 1/2 ?

Yeah, Ranma had a lot of fighting. And yeah, IY has a good amount of fighting.

And yes, they might be or have been run in a shonen manga magazine (I don't know if they have or not, but it's certainly possible.)

But anyone who thinks that Rumiko Takahashi is writing for boys probably doesn't know very many girls.



Also probably hasn't seen/read very much of either series.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_ri/]

IY and Ranma are the only examples I can think of being neither shounen or shoujo or seinen or whatever. But they do lean more towards a shounen direction.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I cna think of a lot of sieres that qualify for both shounen or shoujo, or neither exclusively. Actually I frequently don't like those genre terms because sometimes people want to classify everything as either one or the other, when there's a great deal that doesn't fall into those categories. Like, say, Cowboy Bebop. That isn't about grandois martial arts battles or giant mechas saving the world, and it isn't about anyone having a magical transformation. Though it does have a cute animal sidekick, and it does have spaceships. Go figure.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_ri/]

There aren't just the categories "shounen" and "shoujo"; Cowboy Bebop is, as far as I see it, "seinen", which is a rather unknown term in the western fan base and which happens to be my perferred genre. Seinen = "young man"; targeted at an 18-25 year old audience, and as the translation hints, rather at young men.

Here's a good article that describes the essence of seinen. Here you can find a list with some seinen titles.

Otherwise, I think it's easier to categorize manga titles than anime ones, as it's usually rather helpful to check in what kind of magazine it was published in. The storytelling and drawing style in manga are also quite significant; shoujo titles tend to lose the "dreamy" page layouts when being made fit for television, whereas shounen manga tend to rather have a more "movie-esque" storytelling to begin with. A good example would be Sailor Moon; the anime was made for a broader audience; I know a bunch of guys who liked to watch the show, but I don't know a single male reader of the manga.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_ri/]

Whoops, I notice in the first link I accidentally linked to "josei", the female equivalent of seinen. The correct link.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

You know, I have heard that word once before. As bishseinen, or something (spelling?). I read this quote that said something like "A bishseinin is like bishonen badly in need of a shave." It was on a website about Wolfwood, from Trigun.

Interesting list. Judging by the definitions, I'd have to say it sounds like my main genre too. Trigun, Full Metal Alchemist, Samurai Champloo, these definitely sound like seinin titles. Though I'm only just starting SC and not totally bonded with it yet.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_ri/]

Oh yeah, it's biseinen. "Pretty young man", contrary to the pretty young boy. There would also be seinen-ai, "young mens love". Some people are quite nitpicky about this.

I don't think Trigun and FMA are seinen, though. More like [late teen] shounen. Due to the amount of slapstick and the commercial value. I think both those manga were published in shounen magazines, too. I can't judge SC very well yet, I have seen far too little of it, but from the structure it seems more shounen to me... well gotta see more.
Of course, it sounds like there ain't such a big hell of a difference between "late teen shounen" and "seinen" (as late teens are quite capable of of following mature literature and so on), but seinen titles normally don't tend to go mainstream (with exception of harem series' and the like), like we know it of FMA or other popular anime in the western scene.

For long I've been planning on posting a rant on the subject, I'll prolly be doing it soon.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I think Cowboy Bebop is about as mainstream as it gets.

FMA I would say aimed at 16-24. It has a plot that I think might bore someone in the younger shonen age, because it's really very layered. But it is almost completely lacking in sexuality or romance of any kind, and the main characters are teenagers.

But I don't see a lot of difference in maturity level between Trigun and Cowboy Bebop. Both series have a lot of slapstick, a lot of weaon-violence, a lot of crime, a lot of philosophy, complex and mature plotlines, and a lot of death. They both deal with adults and complex adult interrelationships. The sexuality is more understated in Trigun than in CB, mostly because there's no Faye Valentine in Trigun, but the sexuality is there. The subtley actually lends credence to the whole maturity arguement... there's a lot of understated lead-in to Wolfwood & Milly, so when they sleep together it's not a surprise. But it's not focused on either, because it doesn't have much to do with Vash or the main storyline. It's just there as advanced character development, as was mentioned.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_ri/]

Okay, you got me, I shouldn't talk about series' I don't know too much about. I've seen enough of Bebop (actually I just wanted to finish the last DVD today for the first time), but not of Trigun. I knew it was to get all serious and angsty later, however I knew that of Kenshin and from it's structure Trigun reminded me strongly of Kenshin, which also has a lot of slapstick, weapon-violence, philosophy complex storylines and death, and which is said is undoubtedly shounen (seeing it that way you've got almost the same thing with Naruto, actually).

Being mainstream of course isn't a criteria of something applying to a genre or not, should've expressed myself differently when I talked about the mere tendency in the western scene. One seinen title of my favorite mangaka Urasawa, Yawara!, once surpassed Ranma in Japanese popularity, back when they were still recent, and it has slapstick and all~

So... there we have it again, the difficulties of categorizing. =_=; Reconsidering the Bebop = seinen statement now...

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Dude, I just spoiled Trigun for you!

Dammit! I'm sorry. It's not a big spoiler (thank god I left that out), but now I'm sorry I spoiled you even as much as I did. I thought from the way you were speaking that you had seen all of Trigun.

Trigun, though, stops being a comedy at about episode 5. There's humor continuously to a greater or lesser degree throughout, but at episode 5ish it becomes a drama.

My impression...

I have only seen two episodes of Kenshin. But Kenshin struck me as more akin to InuYasha, which is aimed at younger teenagers, probably an age range at least 4 years younger than Trigun and Bebop. Kenshin I know goes on for many seasons, and has that same "aimless wandering adventure" feel that IY does.

FMA is a quest story too, but it has very few self-contained episodes and tends to go in one continuous flow of plot events, like the last 2/3 of Trigun does. And like Trigun it has theme upon theme upon theme, oodles of symbolism, and how the characterizations and plotlines correlate with the themes is just wonderfully crafted.

CB is like a bunch of self-contained movies running one after another, with plot squeezed in every once in a while at a lot in the last episodes.

Naruto is a lot like FMA in the way that it's very linear it's its plot events, and everything that happens is directly dependant on what happened before it (there's no aimless wandering quest, and very very few self-contained single-episode plots like CB has), but it's long battles are somewhat reminicent of DBZ.

Naruto is definitely aimed younger than Trigun or CB. I find it very interesting how much depth Naruto has for the age group its aimed at (boys 11-15, I would guess), certainly enough depth to keep an adult interested and captivated (probably because the adults of the series, while not as important as the kids, are nevertheless given a lot of development, and the balances and relationships between child and adult characters is believable and realistic, unlike a lot of anime aimed at early teens-- at least in Naruto the kids act like kids and the adults act like adults), but it still has a much younger feel and more simplistic overall themes than FMA, CB, or Trigun.

A thought on self-expressing: For me, when I say complex storylines, I don't necessarily mean complex in the way that just a lot of things happen (that's no barrier for any genre, so yeah shonen and shojo can have a lot of that), I mean complexity in the maturity level required to fully understand it and everything that's happening. I have found most shonen, while eventful and often full of story arcs, is not all that complicated. InuYasha, for isntance, has a complex overall storyline. But it doesn't take half as much work on the audience's part to understand what's going on as CB or FMA or Trigun does. I guess that's what complexity means to me... do I have to think about it in order to understand it. I love Naruto, and it often surprises me, but I don't have to think to fully understand what I'm seeing happen and how that's going to affect later episodes.

Reconsidering the Bebop = seinen statement now...

Why?



Are you watching FMA? Are you current? ::flails:: That show is killing my brain cells.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_ri/]

I finished watching Bebop just now. That series is soo awesome... and yes, now I'll say it's quite seinen. I reconsidered because I got the idea of maybe not having to place everything into categories, particularily such anime series', as I mentioned that it's much easier to sort mangas due to the type of magazine they were published in, and animes tend to be more "general", but that's stupid. And also, the "model" seinen is normally seen as gloom doom and firm plot from beginning till end. Then again, Chobits and Love Hina are also said to be seinen, so... that shows just how broad the definition is. So yeah, Bebop is seinen. Never took that back, just reconsidered in confusion. Silly classifications. But I can't help to get all fixated on 'em.

I went and checked in which kind of manga magazine Bebop was published in, it's a sort of "general" one (funny enough, it seems shoujo titles have been published in there too).

Trigun... you just told me who got together (which I find lovely, even if it's just hinted at; I liked Milly), but not the circumstances of how it came to be, so that's alright. I will finish the series one day, I just need to find out how. *is not rich enough to buy the DVDs*

You mentioned that Bebop and Trigun both have a lot of slapstick. The way I see it, Bebop has much less of that, sure it has it's fine share of comedic moments throughout the series, but they're more toned down than the beginning of Trigun and are more attitude-like; a lot of the humour also has to do people you see in general society. I remember that my father immediately found Bebop was "just awesome" and wanted to see more, whereas Trigun he dismissed as "silly and violent". If Trigun becomes deep and serious nearing the end, then the first episodes really do a deceiving job. I did come up to the point where Wolfwood shows up, but I can't remember more.

I'm not watching FMA at the moment, can't get any films to work on my computer anyway, but I'm trying to get my brother and his other Naruto-loving friends to download it because the way I see it, everyone who likes Naruto tends to like FMA as well. So if they get it, I'll want to watch with them; I did enjoy episode 8, because of the believable display of Edward's fear, as opposed to the usual young shonen "I'll beat you down no matter how dangerous you are!!" approach.
But FMA is licsened now, isn't it? Wonder if they can find the early episodes, someone told me that'd be a bit of a problem.

part 1

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

You most definitely have to finish Trigun. You didn't even get to the part where the Gung Ho Guns show up in episode 11, did you? That's where the whole big snowball into hell really takes shape. I got three words for you: head in bag. ::shudder::

Yes, Trigun is very deceptive in its beginning. It's deceptive about the characters, about the world they live on, about everything. But what you don't really understand until you've finished watching it (this is not a spoiler, just an observation), is that the entire series, from start to finish, is a deep character analysis of Vash. It's all about what's going on his head. You get sucked in by this goofy guy, but then you realize you're not seeing the whole picture at all. It was really amazing to me the first time I went and rewatched it from the beginning having seen the entire run... there's so much there that I didn't pick up at first in terms of foreshadowing and vague little hints dropped.

And oh my god, the angst. Trigun was the angstiest anime I had ever seen until I watched FMA. At first I thought Fushigi Yuugi was sad. Then I watched Trigun, and I realized I knew nothing about pain until I tried this dude's life. And then I watched FMA, and I realized that not only do you have a few main characters of mind-blowing angst... EVERY character has mind-blowing angst. Main or minor characters.

I think the fact that a lot of people who like Naruto like FMA is more a timing coincidence than anything: both are smart, exciting shows with interesting plots and smoothly developed characters, and they're both airing in Japan and being fansubbed right now.

At first I compared FMA to Trigun, because the extreme tones of tragedy mixed with humor is very similar, as is some of the settings in FMA. And the style or well-developed characters with clever dialogue is similar, and the fact that both shows occur in English-speaking worlds is similar. That's mostly about tone and atmosphere.

But in terms of storyline, FMA has a much larger scope to it that, yeah, could be compared to Naruto. All the politics in FMA, and the large cast of characters... that's kind of like the politics in Naruto, and the many individual characters. Trigun is about Vash, and to an extension about the people immediately around Vash because of how they affect him. It's a small set of characters with plot focused tightly on one person. FMA is like Naruto in that it's about not just the main characters but the entire society that they live in that matters. And sometimes the main characters are only a small piece of the overall big picture of events.

FMA might be the very best anime I have ever seen. Depending on how these last upcoming 4 episodes go... if the ending is as fantastic as the whole, FMA will be peerless.

part 2

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I did enjoy episode 8, because of the believable display of Edward's fear, as opposed to the usual young shonen "I'll beat you down no matter how dangerous you are!!" approach.

I know. My head is always breaking for Ed and Al, because they have so much fear and pain and guilt and grief. And if you got a kick out of that... wait till you get to episode 15. Or episode 22. Or... gah! There's so much to talk about with this show. And it's so sad because they are really only children when the plot begins, just 12 and 11. And any 12 year old in Ed's situation would be terrified.

That's what's really great about FMA. It's very believable...realistic. Not the alchemy part, but just that the characters behave in a very realistic manner for their situations. Ed when he's 12 acts like a real 12 year old. When he's 15 he acts 15, and Al acts 14. And the adults act their age too.

This is a common gripe I have with some anime shows-- having 15 year old kids behave like adults for inexplicable reasons. GW was like that, though I love that show to pieces. :) Thankfully that's another way FMA and Naruto are similar... just when I think Sasuke's acting so unbelievably stoic and mature, he does something to remind me that he's only a boy and not half as in control as he wishes he was.

Cowboy Bebop I thought was okay when I was watching it (I was mostly in it for the music), but I only started to love it once I saw how it ended. I think in many ways CB is superior to typical anime, but I think it fell just short of being the greatest of great (the way FMA and Escaflowne are great) because the flow of its main plotline was not well mixed with the subplots... you had the bounty episodes and then you had the Spike episodes. I still can't decide if I thought it should have been cut back by a few episodes, or a few more episodes added. Thankfully the last three episodes managed to tie most everything together, at least everything really important and were beautifully executed. Also, I admire any show that can kill its hero off in such an old fashioned literary way. Cowboy Bebop is a show I enjoyed retroactively more than when I was watching the bulk of it.

FMA is liscenced now, yes, so a lot of sites don't carry it, or only carry the latest eps. But you can download a pack of episodes 1-40 on www.suprnova.org.

Re: part 2

[http://users.livejournal.com/_ri/]

Thanks for the link! I'll pass it on to my brother and his buddies for download. I'm definitely interested in seeing more FMA.

I pretty much agree with you on everything you said abaout Bebop there; on a side note, I too think Spike had died in that last scene.... only after the credits, the words "You'll have to carry that weight" (in place of the familiar See You Space Cowboy) I find weird, because if he's dead he won't need to carry anything at all anymore... hrm.

By the way, have you ever heard of the anime series "Now and Then, Here and There"? Reading about what you like in anime series', and if you're interested in seeing what is said to be one of the most psychologically heaviest anime ever, well, maybe it could be of interest for you.

Re: part 2

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

only after the credits, the words "You'll have to carry that weight" (in place of the familiar See You Space Cowboy) I find weird, because if he's dead he won't need to carry anything at all anymore... hrm.

dude....Right click, Save As.

And then, go to http://www.spikeisdead.com. And don't cry, laugh.

By the way, have you ever heard of the anime series "Now and Then, Here and There"? Reading about what you like in anime series', and if you're interested in seeing what is said to be one of the most psychologically heaviest anime ever, well, maybe it could be of interest for you.

Heavier than Evangelion? ::raises eyebrows:: What's it about? I've only heard the title before.

Re: part 2

[http://users.livejournal.com/_ri/]

I don't suppose it's purpouse that the URL isn't working? '_'
But at least I know where the quote came from, thanks.

It's difficult to say whether NTHT is heavier than Evangelion, because the angst type is kinda different... there aren't such things as "Internal Angsting Out Loud", but it's still pretty damn heavy.
The main character is this highly optimistic 15 yo boy, who would be an "I'll beat you down no matter what!!" shonen type, but the thing about this is, things don't exactly go the way he wishes them to when he suddenly gets ripped from his homely world of Japan and finds himself again in a strange, new world, which is dominated by war and misery, due to it's lack of water supplies. A Rei-type girl, whom the boy has taken on himself to protect, can control/create water, which is why this dictator (who is arguably the greatest nutcase in anime ever) is eager to get his hands on her.... and as the process of having the water created doesn't go as quickly as it should, everyone seems to blame the boy for their suffering and make him feel for it...
The thing about this series is, that the characters are mostly children. Child soldiers being forced to live in a militant hierarchy and to sacrifice their lives for their fanatical leader. It's very well animated, but not very well known, prolly due to it's lack of commercial value or maybe because it got fansubbed back when downloading anime wasn't as popular as today, so it the word didn't spread much. It's long been licensed and has 13 eps.