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Heee. I do.

You know who they are, or you agree? or both?

Well I meant that in response to knowing who they are, but now that I think about it, you may have something there.

(Get thee behind me, crack-brained crossover ideas!)

Having crossover thoughts?

GO WITH IT! RUN WITH IT! I would worship such a crossover. Damn, now I'm going to be thinking about that stuff all through my Legal Implications of the Drug Trade class.

Judge-professor: "What is the main source country for cocaine?"

Rashaka: "Gunsmoke?"

Judge-professor: "How does it get disseminated to the local communities?"

Rashaka: "Time travellers smuggle it past the border in a police box?"

*snicker* I've already got my metaphorical hands full with Doctor Who/Hitchhiker's Guide crossover ideas.

My brain is fuuuuull of the Crazy.

Doctor Who/Hitchhiker's Guide crossover ideas.

Oh wow. That verse pairing is just... perfect. I'd never considered it.

They exist in the same universe much the same way that Firefly and Cowboy Bebop co-exist in the same universe.

I'm not the first person to think of it (I've actually read a few amusing ones here and there) but I'm fine with that. I just want to see Captain Jack meet Zaphod. ;)

Jack strikes me as being a lot more like Ford than Zaphod. coming from the books, anyway. Like a version of Ford that gets laid a lot more often.

Heh. You're probably right.

I'm picturing them getting drunk together and having to be dragged home by their respective traveling companions.

I like the way you think. ~~omgyercrazy!11!~~

Totally agree! Last week, when I posted on The Doctor Dances, I was going to say that the Doctor's captured the same port of my fannish heart Vash the Stampede, pacifist alien, and Kenshin, anti-violence crusading survivor of a war, have held at various times. But I figured nobody would know who the heck I meant.

I'd love to read a little essay about that! I'm not really a Kenshin fan so I'd probably miss some of your points, but I'd love the Trigun stuff. And I bet there's enough people on

new_who or one of the other communities that someone would appreciate the comparison besides me. :)

I wrote it, but it's embarassingly wanky, and possible nonsensical. It's up on my journal, complete with references to monarchs and other weirdness. Basically, their philosophies are guided by the same principles, they're designed according to the same archetype, they've led nomadic lives, and they've got "families of choice."

Hm, perhaps I should have just said that.

I was reading your other entry, but it got locked during the time I was composing my reply to your little entry! So here it is. :)

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Firstly, excellent post! I enjoyed reading it, though the Kenshin parts mostly went over my head, I'd already known the basic two-sentence summary of Kenshin plot, so I followed those parts fine too.

I liked the comment that the "masks" they wear aren't totally masks, but are on some level true.

Vash has killed, but he never went to the place in his mind where he believed he was justified.

Interesting point. I kind of agree and disagree at the same time.

I disagree because I think the ending of the series is so open-ended---so deliberately open-ended, that we can't really say what Vash's state of mind is toward Legato's death (execution, really), just his state of mind toward Knives. I think Vash forgave himself, but we were never really told if he'd come to a final opinion on whether or not it was justified. That was left open-ended, and I always felt it was done deliberately.

After seeing the whole thing, I looked at Trigun as basically a character analysis from start to finish, and the main conflict is the philosophical battle for Vash's soul, though this doesn't become apparent for a long time. At one end you have Rem's influence and memory affecting Vash's actions, and Vash's (inherent? or learned?) goodness. On the other hand you have Knives, Wolfwood's logic, and harsh reality of an unfair world. Knives's desire isn't to kill Vash, it's to cause Vash to break down and see things his way. For every moment you see something happen to justify Rem's outlook of peace and love, you get a flip side to counter that where we see darkness win, people be weak-hearted, or another person dying who Vash isn't quite quick enough to save. Especially after the Gung Ho Guns are introduced.

I saw the end of the series as Vash rejecting both Rem's ideology (he'd essentially been living for her and for the sake of her philosophy after her death) and Knives's ideology as either one being absolute truth. Vash at the end of the series has finally grown up, and now is going to go through life determined to figure it out for himself. He's a blank slate.

I think this definitely puts him at a different place emotionally than the 9th doctor or Kenshin, at least as Vash is at the very end of Trigun. He's not fresh from his loss like the Doctor is. But the beauty of (and what I loved about) the open-endedness of Trigun's ending is that it is so completely, totally, open. Vash is a blank slate-- or rather, a blank ticket to the future. He doesn't know what that means or what his decisions will be in the future, but he's going to start by saving his brother.

I was reading your other entry, but it got locked during the time I was composing my reply to your little entry! So here it is. :)

Ack! That's what I get for mucking with my LJ settings before bed.

Excellent analysis of Vash. Am bogged down in work will probably be delayed in replying, but just wanted to express my appreciation!

I was wanting to point

donna_c_punk (new Who fan) to your post about Trigun and the Ninth Doctor, but I couldn't find the link. I tried searching by date but when I clicked on individual dates your journal says you messed up your posting journal times or something.

Yeah. I couldn't find the post either. My computer's clock got screwed up a while back and made a mess of things. Here's my best attempt at recalling the basic points:

First, let me state the obvious. They're both aliens. And when we humans write aliens, we don't actually succeed in writing something truly alien. Our aliens tend to be parts of ourselves taken to extremes (I.e. Klingons get all our rage issues, Vulcans get the pure intellect, Counselor Deanna "Captian, I feel... something" Troi--and her species, I've forgotten their name-- is us at our touchy-feely worst, etc). I'm simplifying this all to heck to make my point, which is this: The parts of ourselves that Vash and The Doctor represent are similar. They're the best of ourselves.

They genuinely love people. They're pacifists. They're willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe in. They're wanderers but they're not shiftless in their wandering. They travel around, touching lives and trying to make the world/universe a better place, to shape it according to their ideals. Neither of them has a home, so they make friends and create a family of companions, people who love them and want the things they want.

The Doctor comes out of the same Enlightenment tradition as Sherlock Holmes and Science Fiction itself. He embodies the belief that scientific thinking and knowledge can solve all the world's (or, in his case, the universe's) ills. That cooler heads, with cooler gadgets, always prevail. He doesn't need to beat people up; he's got a sonic screwdriver and a mighty brain. What about the way he wins by having a sword fight with the alien in The Christmas Invasion, or, you know, the genocide he commits? you might ask. Well, much the same way Vash ended up having to kill somebody, the Doctor's ideals end up having some, er, tragic limitations.

However, by virtue of the way his story is structured, Vash is a bit more "pure" in his ideals than The Doctor. First of all, instead of simply representing an Enlightenment ideal, this guy is pretty much the embodiment of the best of humanity, full stop. He can be purer within his story because he has Knives to act as his foil, embodying the worst of humanity, balancing him out. But since the Time War and the loss of the Doctor's people and his nemesis The Master, and the plot about the Valeyard, The Doctor is, erm, less pure, more human. He has to contain both best and worst. Recently, you could say his ratio of those qualities has actually tilted in the opposite direction. The smiley Doctor in the long scarf is more like Vash than the Doctor in the leather jacket. The closest Vash and the guy in the leather jacket get is when Vash kills Legato.

Also, the smiley guy in the long scarf (the Fourth Doctor) is not only light years away from the Tenth Doctor who, I think, would have accepted the bad guy's deal in School Reunion, were it not for Sarah Jane, but he would have been horrified at what he has become.

Thanks for the synposis. And now with a new Ten perspective!

First of all, instead of simply representing an Enlightenment ideal, this guy is pretty much the embodiment of the best of humanity, full stop. He can be purer within his story because he has Knives to act as his foil, embodying the worst of humanity, balancing him out.

Yeah, and for all that he's got that touch of age/agelessness, Vash's still much younger than the Doctor. I think of Nine not as being quite like Vash, but rather as being a "much older, wiser, more experienced, and somewhat more bitter" version. And considering how much experience, age, and capacity for bitterness Vash already has under his belt, that's a lot.

Also, the smiley guy in the long scarf (the Fourth Doctor) is not only light years away from the Tenth Doctor who, I think, would have accepted the bad guy's deal in School Reunion, were it not for Sarah Jane, but he would have been horrified at what he has become.

I've been downloading old Doctor stuff but haven't really watched any yet, so I can't comment. I don't know what the other Doctors would say about Ten... I think Nine would understand (the Doctor's hubris-tinted desire to Fix Things is, after all, the holdover from Nine's losses and how emotionally "lost" Nine was), but I couldn't guess as to how Eight would react. Worry? I don't think he'd be "horrified", but I do think he'd be very concerned.

I did watch the 6 minute clip of the scene where Sarah Jane left, though. I thought her talking to the Doctor and him not hearing her was cute (in a sitcom way), but I was kind of put off by her "I'm leaving" game of chicken. It seemed a lot more immature than what I'm used to seeing from Rose, and she looked about the same age as Rose. ...Also, I hate people who play emotional games like that. I can't stand people who do that shit-- and I say games because at first I thought she really was leaving, but it was clear from her reaction to his news that she just wanted him to convince her to stay. :frown: That bugs me.

I liked 50-something Sara Jane much better.

I've been downloading old Doctor stuff but haven't really watched any yet, so I can't comment. I don't know what the other Doctors would say about Ten... I think Nine would understand (the Doctor's hubris-tinted desire to Fix Things is, after all, the holdover from Nine's losses and how emotionally "lost" Nine was), but I couldn't guess as to how Eight would react. Worry? I don't think he'd be "horrified", but I do think he'd be very concerned.

I might be projecting my own horror. But I did see Four's actions in Genesis of the Daleks as an abnegation of power. In his speech at the end, I got the impression that he thought the universe should be allowed to develop as it will, within reason. A lot of his stories were about preventing other people, the villains of the piece, from mucking with the natural course of history/existence. He stepped in when he saw a wrong being commited, but he limited himself in scale.

The big change came when the Eighth Doctor decided that the universe wasn't doing all right on its own. We haven't gotten much info re: how he came to his decision in canon, but I have a pet theory that the weapons of war the Daleks and Timelords were using were killing the universe, making it uninhabitable. Everything has a time, and everything dies. Maybe that was meant to be the end of the universe, the final war. But he couldn't accept that. He intervened, destroying two civilizations and the entire timeline. And now he's not in the universe/timeline he was born (loomed? created?) into anymore. He's in a universe of his own making. He can't see existence as it is as the final authority anymore because he *made it* as it is. It's his. He is the final authority. And if he can make it, he can make it what he wants it to be, given the chance.

Basically, he has become a deeply frightening being.

I did watch the 6 minute clip of the scene where Sarah Jane left, though. I thought her talking to the Doctor and him not hearing her was cute (in a sitcom way), but I was kind of put off by her "I'm leaving" game of chicken. It seemed a lot more immature than what I'm used to seeing from Rose, and she looked about the same age as Rose. ...Also, I hate people who play emotional games like that. I can't stand people who do that shit-- and I say games because at first I thought she really was leaving, but it was clear from her reaction to his news that she just wanted him to convince her to stay. :frown: That bugs me.

Hmm. I thought the worst thing about that bit was that they didn't just have her exit, they assassinated her character while they did it. It really didn't seem in character to me. Though, I do think she loved him, and I can imagine how loving the Fourth Doctor, who was so distant and unreachable compared to Rose's Doctors, would drive a girl a little crazy.

I might be projecting my own horror. But I did see Four's actions in Genesis of the Daleks as an abnegation of power. In his speech at the end, I got the impression that he thought the universe should be allowed to develop as it will, within reason. A lot of his stories were about preventing other people, the villains of the piece, from mucking with the natural course of history/existence. He stepped in when he saw a wrong being commited, but he limited himself in scale.

Well, as Ten said, "I'm so old. I used to have so much mercy." Perhaps it's simply that time really has changed him that much. And it's not better or worse; it's just change.

Then again I'm also wondering if the Doctor's being set up for a fall of some sort at the end of the season.

I love your pet theories on Eight. Gah, I just loved Eight. And I'm *still* enamored with the mind-bogglingly idea of Eight being the one that did the war, and all that implies (still having seen only the movies.) I know we've discussed that a lot before, but the angst and tragedy in that thought still makes me squee.

I thought the worst thing about that bit was that they didn't just have her exit, they assassinated her character while they did it. It really didn't seem in character to me.

It's good to know she isn't like that all the time then. I did really like her in the new ep.

I love your pet theories on Eight. Gah, I just loved Eight. And I'm *still* enamored with the mind-bogglingly idea of Eight being the one that did the war, and all that implies (still having seen only the movies.) I know we've discussed that a lot before, but the angst and tragedy in that thought still makes me squee.

Mmm, yeah. It's an enduring fascination with me, too. I don't know if you've seen it, but

blancwene made a gorgeous FST about the Eighth Doctor and the destruction of Gallifrey that you might like. I thought it was fantastic.

Thanks, I'm grabbing it right now.

I'm glad to know we're not the only fangirls suffering from a lingering Eight/War/Nine fascination.

See, I think it's a rewriting of canon to say previous Doctors loved their companions the way Nine/Ten loves Rose. They didn't.

It's actually kind of painful to watch some episodes during the Fourth/Sara Jane era. Because she so obviously loves him, and he so obviously just isn't that into her. I'd go so far as to say that I don't think he would have even considered, or been capable of being that into a human back when he had other Gallifreyans to choose from.

See, I think it's a rewriting of canon to say previous Doctors loved their companions the way Nine/Ten loves Rose. They didn't.
It's actually kind of painful to watch some episodes during the Fourth/Sara Jane era. Because she so obviously loves him, and he so obviously just isn't that into her. I'd go so far as to say that I don't think he would have even considered, or been capable of being that into a human back when he had other Gallifreyans to choose from.

It might be. From the impression I'd gotten from fandom, I was surprised by Ten's conversation with Sarah Jane at the end of this episode where he asked her if she'd met anybody. I was with it all the way up to there, going with the reading that she loved him but he loved her only as a friend/companion, like all his companions, and not like Rose. So when he asked her about other guys I thought it was weird, and not what I was expecting. I shrugged it off though. And then when I saw the clip of him leaving her, I was even more baffled. He *did* dump her like she was nothing special. I can't at all imagine him doing that to Rose, even without hearing him say he wouldn't. --That, btw, I think was the marked difference between Rose and Sarah Jane. Rose isn't his only companion or the only companion to love him, but she is special, in the sense that he does love her like he didn't love the others. Maybe she needed to hear "No, not to you" from his mouth to believe it, but I think it was apparent to the audience without that admission (the benefit of audience omniscience and all.)

Would Four or the others have done just left Rose? I don't know. Would Ten have done it to Rose if he'd never met her as Nine? Again, I don't know. Just going by Ten's less needy/obsessive personality I might say it's possible he might not have become so deeply attached to her so quickly, but it's hard to separate Ten from Nine when it comes to Rose because the Doctor's tenth incarnation was literally born from the Doctor's act of giving his life away out of love for Rose. Ten didn't have to fall in love with Rose-- he's still in love with her from when he was Nine. That part didn't change at all, and possibly even got stronger if he is able to offer her something as big as "the rest of your life"...even if that's just a measely 40-50 years for a Time Lord, it's still significant.

...also, I think it's interesting that he did seem to be into the one Gallifreyan he traveled with back then (Romana). (Yet another of my pet theories is that they let their relationship break up because when you're damn near immortal, you don't have to cling like short lived humans to do the ones they love. You can pass in and out of each other's lives, catch up in a millenia or so, etc.).

http://rashaka.livejournal.com/1095004.html

My, you underestimate us. I just spent the weekend with a bunch of friends watching the first seven episodes of the new Dr Who and the last couple of discs of Trigun. I hadn't quite compared the two in that way, but I certainly see it. It does explain why I love both in pretty much the same way.

Before FMA, Trigun was my fav anime. The one closest to my heart, emotionally.

Also my vote for "most outright angsty anime", on account of the last 2/3 of Trigun being about "How much emotional pain can we put one guy through before he snaps? Ooooh! Look, he's snapping! Let's kill a few more people around him until he loses his mind permanently."

But naturally the neverending pain of the Elric brothers and everyone around them eventually took that top title too.

...If you've seen the first 7 of Dr. Who, I encourage you to watch the most recent 3! My favorites so far are episodes 6 and 10. 6 for angst, 10 for teh ship.

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Trigun/Vash essay?

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