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So, is it just me, or does The Doctor in Dr. Who (9th, cause that's the only one I know), remind anyone of a much older, much wiser, much more experienced, and somewhat more bitter...

...Vash The Stampede?

You know, with the pacifism, the giddy joy of life, the wanderlust and the I'm-older-than-I-look-even-though-I-can-tell-you-forget-it-sometimes angst.

Nah. Nevermind. The real miracle would be if there's anyone on my flist who actually knows who BOTH those characters are.

WARNING: COMMENTS NOW CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR END OF TRIGUN.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

rashaka.livejournal.com

I was wanting to point

donna_c_punk (new Who fan) to your post about Trigun and the Ninth Doctor, but I couldn't find the link. I tried searching by date but when I clicked on individual dates your journal says you messed up your posting journal times or something.

From:

mswyrr

Yeah. I couldn't find the post either. My computer's clock got screwed up a while back and made a mess of things. Here's my best attempt at recalling the basic points:

First, let me state the obvious. They're both aliens. And when we humans write aliens, we don't actually succeed in writing something truly alien. Our aliens tend to be parts of ourselves taken to extremes (I.e. Klingons get all our rage issues, Vulcans get the pure intellect, Counselor Deanna "Captian, I feel... something" Troi--and her species, I've forgotten their name-- is us at our touchy-feely worst, etc). I'm simplifying this all to heck to make my point, which is this: The parts of ourselves that Vash and The Doctor represent are similar. They're the best of ourselves.

They genuinely love people. They're pacifists. They're willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe in. They're wanderers but they're not shiftless in their wandering. They travel around, touching lives and trying to make the world/universe a better place, to shape it according to their ideals. Neither of them has a home, so they make friends and create a family of companions, people who love them and want the things they want.

The Doctor comes out of the same Enlightenment tradition as Sherlock Holmes and Science Fiction itself. He embodies the belief that scientific thinking and knowledge can solve all the world's (or, in his case, the universe's) ills. That cooler heads, with cooler gadgets, always prevail. He doesn't need to beat people up; he's got a sonic screwdriver and a mighty brain. What about the way he wins by having a sword fight with the alien in The Christmas Invasion, or, you know, the genocide he commits? you might ask. Well, much the same way Vash ended up having to kill somebody, the Doctor's ideals end up having some, er, tragic limitations.

However, by virtue of the way his story is structured, Vash is a bit more "pure" in his ideals than The Doctor. First of all, instead of simply representing an Enlightenment ideal, this guy is pretty much the embodiment of the best of humanity, full stop. He can be purer within his story because he has Knives to act as his foil, embodying the worst of humanity, balancing him out. But since the Time War and the loss of the Doctor's people and his nemesis The Master, and the plot about the Valeyard, The Doctor is, erm, less pure, more human. He has to contain both best and worst. Recently, you could say his ratio of those qualities has actually tilted in the opposite direction. The smiley Doctor in the long scarf is more like Vash than the Doctor in the leather jacket. The closest Vash and the guy in the leather jacket get is when Vash kills Legato.

Also, the smiley guy in the long scarf (the Fourth Doctor) is not only light years away from the Tenth Doctor who, I think, would have accepted the bad guy's deal in School Reunion, were it not for Sarah Jane, but he would have been horrified at what he has become.

From:

rashaka.livejournal.com

Thanks for the synposis. And now with a new Ten perspective!

First of all, instead of simply representing an Enlightenment ideal, this guy is pretty much the embodiment of the best of humanity, full stop. He can be purer within his story because he has Knives to act as his foil, embodying the worst of humanity, balancing him out.

Yeah, and for all that he's got that touch of age/agelessness, Vash's still much younger than the Doctor. I think of Nine not as being quite like Vash, but rather as being a "much older, wiser, more experienced, and somewhat more bitter" version. And considering how much experience, age, and capacity for bitterness Vash already has under his belt, that's a lot.

Also, the smiley guy in the long scarf (the Fourth Doctor) is not only light years away from the Tenth Doctor who, I think, would have accepted the bad guy's deal in School Reunion, were it not for Sarah Jane, but he would have been horrified at what he has become.

I've been downloading old Doctor stuff but haven't really watched any yet, so I can't comment. I don't know what the other Doctors would say about Ten... I think Nine would understand (the Doctor's hubris-tinted desire to Fix Things is, after all, the holdover from Nine's losses and how emotionally "lost" Nine was), but I couldn't guess as to how Eight would react. Worry? I don't think he'd be "horrified", but I do think he'd be very concerned.

I did watch the 6 minute clip of the scene where Sarah Jane left, though. I thought her talking to the Doctor and him not hearing her was cute (in a sitcom way), but I was kind of put off by her "I'm leaving" game of chicken. It seemed a lot more immature than what I'm used to seeing from Rose, and she looked about the same age as Rose. ...Also, I hate people who play emotional games like that. I can't stand people who do that shit-- and I say games because at first I thought she really was leaving, but it was clear from her reaction to his news that she just wanted him to convince her to stay. :frown: That bugs me.

I liked 50-something Sara Jane much better.

From:

mswyrr

I've been downloading old Doctor stuff but haven't really watched any yet, so I can't comment. I don't know what the other Doctors would say about Ten... I think Nine would understand (the Doctor's hubris-tinted desire to Fix Things is, after all, the holdover from Nine's losses and how emotionally "lost" Nine was), but I couldn't guess as to how Eight would react. Worry? I don't think he'd be "horrified", but I do think he'd be very concerned.

I might be projecting my own horror. But I did see Four's actions in Genesis of the Daleks as an abnegation of power. In his speech at the end, I got the impression that he thought the universe should be allowed to develop as it will, within reason. A lot of his stories were about preventing other people, the villains of the piece, from mucking with the natural course of history/existence. He stepped in when he saw a wrong being commited, but he limited himself in scale.

The big change came when the Eighth Doctor decided that the universe wasn't doing all right on its own. We haven't gotten much info re: how he came to his decision in canon, but I have a pet theory that the weapons of war the Daleks and Timelords were using were killing the universe, making it uninhabitable. Everything has a time, and everything dies. Maybe that was meant to be the end of the universe, the final war. But he couldn't accept that. He intervened, destroying two civilizations and the entire timeline. And now he's not in the universe/timeline he was born (loomed? created?) into anymore. He's in a universe of his own making. He can't see existence as it is as the final authority anymore because he *made it* as it is. It's his. He is the final authority. And if he can make it, he can make it what he wants it to be, given the chance.

Basically, he has become a deeply frightening being.

I did watch the 6 minute clip of the scene where Sarah Jane left, though. I thought her talking to the Doctor and him not hearing her was cute (in a sitcom way), but I was kind of put off by her "I'm leaving" game of chicken. It seemed a lot more immature than what I'm used to seeing from Rose, and she looked about the same age as Rose. ...Also, I hate people who play emotional games like that. I can't stand people who do that shit-- and I say games because at first I thought she really was leaving, but it was clear from her reaction to his news that she just wanted him to convince her to stay. :frown: That bugs me.

Hmm. I thought the worst thing about that bit was that they didn't just have her exit, they assassinated her character while they did it. It really didn't seem in character to me. Though, I do think she loved him, and I can imagine how loving the Fourth Doctor, who was so distant and unreachable compared to Rose's Doctors, would drive a girl a little crazy.

From:

rashaka.livejournal.com

I might be projecting my own horror. But I did see Four's actions in Genesis of the Daleks as an abnegation of power. In his speech at the end, I got the impression that he thought the universe should be allowed to develop as it will, within reason. A lot of his stories were about preventing other people, the villains of the piece, from mucking with the natural course of history/existence. He stepped in when he saw a wrong being commited, but he limited himself in scale.

Well, as Ten said, "I'm so old. I used to have so much mercy." Perhaps it's simply that time really has changed him that much. And it's not better or worse; it's just change.

Then again I'm also wondering if the Doctor's being set up for a fall of some sort at the end of the season.

I love your pet theories on Eight. Gah, I just loved Eight. And I'm *still* enamored with the mind-bogglingly idea of Eight being the one that did the war, and all that implies (still having seen only the movies.) I know we've discussed that a lot before, but the angst and tragedy in that thought still makes me squee.

I thought the worst thing about that bit was that they didn't just have her exit, they assassinated her character while they did it. It really didn't seem in character to me.

It's good to know she isn't like that all the time then. I did really like her in the new ep.

From:

mswyrr

I love your pet theories on Eight. Gah, I just loved Eight. And I'm *still* enamored with the mind-bogglingly idea of Eight being the one that did the war, and all that implies (still having seen only the movies.) I know we've discussed that a lot before, but the angst and tragedy in that thought still makes me squee.

Mmm, yeah. It's an enduring fascination with me, too. I don't know if you've seen it, but

blancwene made a gorgeous FST about the Eighth Doctor and the destruction of Gallifrey that you might like. I thought it was fantastic.

From:

rashaka.livejournal.com

Thanks, I'm grabbing it right now.

I'm glad to know we're not the only fangirls suffering from a lingering Eight/War/Nine fascination.

From:

mswyrr

From:

rashaka.livejournal.com

See, I think it's a rewriting of canon to say previous Doctors loved their companions the way Nine/Ten loves Rose. They didn't.
It's actually kind of painful to watch some episodes during the Fourth/Sara Jane era. Because she so obviously loves him, and he so obviously just isn't that into her. I'd go so far as to say that I don't think he would have even considered, or been capable of being that into a human back when he had other Gallifreyans to choose from.

It might be. From the impression I'd gotten from fandom, I was surprised by Ten's conversation with Sarah Jane at the end of this episode where he asked her if she'd met anybody. I was with it all the way up to there, going with the reading that she loved him but he loved her only as a friend/companion, like all his companions, and not like Rose. So when he asked her about other guys I thought it was weird, and not what I was expecting. I shrugged it off though. And then when I saw the clip of him leaving her, I was even more baffled. He *did* dump her like she was nothing special. I can't at all imagine him doing that to Rose, even without hearing him say he wouldn't. --That, btw, I think was the marked difference between Rose and Sarah Jane. Rose isn't his only companion or the only companion to love him, but she is special, in the sense that he does love her like he didn't love the others. Maybe she needed to hear "No, not to you" from his mouth to believe it, but I think it was apparent to the audience without that admission (the benefit of audience omniscience and all.)

Would Four or the others have done just left Rose? I don't know. Would Ten have done it to Rose if he'd never met her as Nine? Again, I don't know. Just going by Ten's less needy/obsessive personality I might say it's possible he might not have become so deeply attached to her so quickly, but it's hard to separate Ten from Nine when it comes to Rose because the Doctor's tenth incarnation was literally born from the Doctor's act of giving his life away out of love for Rose. Ten didn't have to fall in love with Rose-- he's still in love with her from when he was Nine. That part didn't change at all, and possibly even got stronger if he is able to offer her something as big as "the rest of your life"...even if that's just a measely 40-50 years for a Time Lord, it's still significant.

From:

mswyrr

...also, I think it's interesting that he did seem to be into the one Gallifreyan he traveled with back then (Romana). (Yet another of my pet theories is that they let their relationship break up because when you're damn near immortal, you don't have to cling like short lived humans to do the ones they love. You can pass in and out of each other's lives, catch up in a millenia or so, etc.).