Doctor Who: speculative questions about current and old canon, ships, and other companions

[timepiececlock]

I was re-dicussing with mswyrr our Vash=The 9th Doctor comparison theory here, and it got into a discussion about the Doctor's relationships with Rose, Sara Jane, and other companions.

Some vague discussion of the newest episode was there, and this assertion came up regarding the episode:

mswyrr: "I think it's a rewriting of canon to say previous Doctors loved their companions the way Nine/Ten loves Rose. They didn't."

I've not seen much of the older Doctors except Eight's movie and the 6 minute clip of Sarah Jane's scene for leaving the show. But what I got out of that clip was the sense that the Doctor didn't at all care for her the way he cares for Rose or the way his conversation with Sarah Jane at the end of "School Reunion" implied. He did exactly what Sarah Jane accused him of doing: he dumped her with barely a thought. Which is not to say he didn't care for her at all, but just that it appeared (by his abrupt dumping of her) to be more of a friend/teacher's pet kind of affection. I can't at all imagine him leaving Rose so callously, and I don't buy into the idea that it's just because it was an old tv show and that's how things worked back then.

But my speculation is mostly moot, given how little I know of Four/Sarah Jane except that short parting clip. What do you guys think?

A.) Do you think this latest episode ret-conned to imply a deeper past affection on the Fourth Doctor's part for Sarah Jane than the original series implied? Or do you think it was actually just confirmation and not convenient rewriting of canon?

B.) Do you think that he does or doesn't see Rose as different from his other companions?


I can't answer A, but my answer for B is "yes," because of two main reasons:

(1) because he told her she outright that she was different in this episode (or at least different from Sarah Jane of the past, who he did dump)

(2) because she was clearly that significant to the Ninth Doctor, and the Doctor's Tenth incarnation was literally born from the Doctor's act of giving his life away out of love for Rose [I make the distinction here between sacrificing your life as an act of pure nobility and the deliberately romantic aspect Nine's sacrifice was given]. Though Nine and Ten are becoming more visibly different, I think the Doctor's feelings toward Rose are actually where Nine and Ten are the most similar. No surprise, given the circumstances of his regeneration.


EDIT: I guess I should say that when I think about it, my answer #2 is actually not answering the question B, it's answering a different question entirely: which is whether or not Ten loves Rose enough not to just dump her... That's a different question from "is she different from the other companions?", because I don't necessarily mean that loving Rose meant he didn't love any of his other companions.
...ARGH. I'm confusing myself here. It's really hard to try to answer these questions when I've only seen stuff of Eight, Nine, and Ten, and the most I know of the others is a 6 minute clip of Four. This is why I want your various and sundry opinions.


That's enough of my view; what say you folk?

Comments

[vandonovan.livejournal.com]

In answer to A: I definitely think that "School Reunion" retconned the Doctor/Sarah Jane relationship. I've not seen a whole lot of Sarah Jane, but I've seen several of her serials, including the entirity of "The Hand of Fear" where she left and I never got any indication at all that EITHER of them were in love with the other. Now, I can see Sarah's love growing AFTER that. After he's gone and she's realized what she's missing, andhow could any man ever hold up to that again. But I never got the impression that either Three or Four loved her like that. Three was even rather condescending to her, though he did get better.

As for OTHER companions though, I'm quite certain he loved them. There wasn't a lot of chemsitry between Four and Romana, but I definitely did get the impression, at times, that there was something there. He certainly treated Romana more like he treats Rose. She was also his equal (being a Time Lady), so that seemed to give him some interesting footing, compared to, say, his relationship with Leela, who was a savage/cave woman and the completely opposite of Romana. I never got a romantic vibe from Four/Leela.

There are companions he's been interested in romantically, in the book. There was a girl named Charley, as well as someone named Benny, I believe. They were unsexual love, and could probably be tweaked into "family love" as opposed to "romantic love" but nevertheless, his feelings for them, in the books, was very strong.

And of course, he had to have had some slight interest in Grace in the TVM.

All the same, I don't feel any of those previous companions, not even Romana, were treated the way he treats Rose. Whetther this is because Rose is special, or because he's so very broken after the Time War, or a combonation or whatever, the dynamic is definitely different. (He was, after all, rather canonically asexual prior to this.)

As for B... I think that does go hand in hand. There are times when I think he sees her just like the other companions. (In "Father's Day" I believe, he tells her she's just a stupid ape, like the rest.) But I also think she IS different than the other companions. If the Daleks could be wiped out simply by forcing the TARDIS open and looking into the Eye of Harmony, the Time Lords would have done it. (though, perhaps, that's how Eight intially destroyed them, who knows.) Anyway, I think that another companion couldn't have done that. I think there is something about Rose that allows her that power -- whether it's her connection to the Doctor that the TARDIS recognizes, or what, I dunno. But I think she is different from the other companions, we just don't know it yet.

Go watch more old Who! :D

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the detailed answer!

All the same, I don't feel any of those previous companions, not even Romana, were treated the way he treats Rose. Whetther this is because Rose is special, or because he's so very broken after the Time War, or a combonation or whatever, the dynamic is definitely different. (He was, after all, rather canonically asexual prior to this.)

I think "treatment" is a better word; thanks. Maybe what I'm trying to ask is not so much whether Rose is different or not but whether or not she is treated differently.

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

Maybe what I'm trying to ask is not so much whether Rose is different or not but whether or not she is treated differently.

Possibly, it could be a product of it being only Rose and the Doctor traveling around. Most of the time, the Doctor had more than one companion or, in the case of Three, people who associated with him in his adventures. It wasn't so centralized (I'm not sure if I like that word as a descriptor, but I'm going with it for now).

As for the issue of Romana, I've only seen all of Romana I and he definitely forged a relationship of teacher/student with her. Yet, the tension between them felt like if there was a bit of push, it could've become another relationship entirely.

The second incarntion, however, was a different personality, so their relationship was reflected accordingly. I've only seen "City of Death" for II, and it's apparent the connection with them is unlike any he's had before. Honestly, I would chalk that up to the fact Romana was an equal, unlike any of his previous "companions". She may've been academically "smarter", but he was 500 some years older, with life experience.

I can speak to Five quite well, since I've seen nearly everything of him - except the four serials in Series 20 I can't seem to get a hold of. He comes off as more human than any of the others. Yes, he's much older, wiser, advanced than any of the companions he's traveled with, but it hardly ever surfaces. He always took time - when he had it - to explain things to his companions. The one time I saw him completely pissy was in "Four To Doomsday", but everyone except Five was acting like an idiot there. Esp. Adric.

when the Cybermen were threatening Tegan's life in "Earthshock", he tried to play as unconcerned and it backfired on him. The leader called his bluff, forcing him to admit he had feelings for her. I'm not saying it was a feeling of romantic love, but of deep enough caring to throw himself between her and the Cybermen for. Still, he used the opportunity to rail the Cybermen for having no feelings because they made life worth living. Someone above mentioned the loss of Adric, which did affect him very much. They couldn't spend time on mourning him since the end of "Earthshock" went straight into "Time-Flight" and the events of that serial required almost immediate attention. However, when Tegan suggests he go back in time and rescue Adric before he's killed, that upsets him even more. Because he can't. It violates Time Lord law. Though, for a second, it seems like he considered doing it, then told her and Nyssa to never ask him to do something like that again.

I don't know. I've come to the conclusion that different Doctors' personalities chose their companions. Tegan, Adric and Nyssa played better off of Five than they did Four. Really, he didn't have to keep anyone with him, and if someone wanted to leave, he would oblige. I believe Ten hit it on the head in "School Reunion" of why he didn't put up much of a fight. If they stayed on forever, he would eventually watch them die. Either of old age, or by something that happened on one of their trips (Adric and Katarina). Rose is "special" to Nine and Ten, I just don't see her having that instant effect on 8 down to the original.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

four serials in Series 20 I can't seem to get a hold of.

Oh, that's just tragic! Which one have you seen (easier than listing the ones you haven't)?

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

It is tragic. Because the funny not-so-funny thing about my dilemma? I usually go through torrents to get my episodes, and mininova has torrents of every season of each Doctor ... except for Five!!! It's as though they know I NEED that collection and I'm being denied by crummy karma. Crap.

At any rate, the ones I don't have/haven't seen are: "Arc of Infinity", "Snakedance" (which I'm dyin' to see, because I loved the Mara experience Tegan had), "Terminus" and "Enlightenment". Everything else? Check.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's just sad! "Enlightenment" is an all-time favorite of mine and I just watched it again this week (and felt compelled to cap the icon!). It was just posted on uk_telly within the last few days, so you should be able to find it there (though I'd watch "Terminus" first, since "Enlightement" is the end of the Turlough/BG trilogy). If I see the others, I'll let you know. "Snakedance" is a personal favorite of mine as well (and a very young Martin Clunes is in it!).

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

Ah, I found "Enlightenment"! Thanks so much! I was beginning to lose all hope. ::dls like a madwoman::

[alto2.livejournal.com]

Ahh, good! I hope you enjoy it :)

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

There are companions he's been interested in romantically, in the book. There was a girl named Charley, as well as someone named Benny, I believe. They were unsexual love, and could probably be tweaked into "family love" as opposed to "romantic love" but nevertheless, his feelings for them, in the books, was very strong.

Charley was actually the subject of similar arguments back when Scherzo came out! *giggle* It implied romantic love and that romantic love was (oh, of course superior).

And the Doctor and Benny almost certainly had sex at the end of the The Dying Days. (Eight's first conquest of many. That slutboi alien tease.)


And of course, he had to have had some slight interest in Grace in the TVM.

I think there is something about Rose that allows her that power -- whether it's her connection to the Doctor that the TARDIS recognizes, or what, I dunno.

It's a big yellow truck. ;)

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Sorry, replied to wrong comment!

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

Then there's Benny's seduction of the Eight Doctor in The Dying Days. I saw a romantic vibe between Romana II and the Fourth Doctor, around the time they were actually together in real life. And the Third Doctor and Jo. And the Sixth Doctor and Peri after the hiatus (they're very chummy when they step out of the Tardis, and look at his reaction when he thinks she's dead - actually, I don't buy the Yrcanos/Peri thing, so she probably really was dead).

I do think his relationship with Rose is different. When he meets her he's truly alone. She's feisty like Ace, but with less emotional baggage. I think she's the right person at the right time.

And the Eighth Doctor had discovered that kissing girls is fun ;)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

And the Eighth Doctor had discovered that kissing girls is fun ;)

I watched the Eighth movie and I was like "OMG, the old Doctor kisses people! Up against trees!" It was cute. For Grace I got this vibe that was similar to Nine's reaction to Rose in episode 1-- he liked her, he was charmed by her, he was attracted to her (more than Nine was to Rose in episode 1, probably), and they flirted well together. It was more a host of possibilities, possibilities that Grace decided to turn down.(I get why she did, but man... I'd totally jump on the space ship.)