Doctor Who: speculative questions about current and old canon, ships, and other companions

[timepiececlock]

I was re-dicussing with mswyrr our Vash=The 9th Doctor comparison theory here, and it got into a discussion about the Doctor's relationships with Rose, Sara Jane, and other companions.

Some vague discussion of the newest episode was there, and this assertion came up regarding the episode:

mswyrr: "I think it's a rewriting of canon to say previous Doctors loved their companions the way Nine/Ten loves Rose. They didn't."

I've not seen much of the older Doctors except Eight's movie and the 6 minute clip of Sarah Jane's scene for leaving the show. But what I got out of that clip was the sense that the Doctor didn't at all care for her the way he cares for Rose or the way his conversation with Sarah Jane at the end of "School Reunion" implied. He did exactly what Sarah Jane accused him of doing: he dumped her with barely a thought. Which is not to say he didn't care for her at all, but just that it appeared (by his abrupt dumping of her) to be more of a friend/teacher's pet kind of affection. I can't at all imagine him leaving Rose so callously, and I don't buy into the idea that it's just because it was an old tv show and that's how things worked back then.

But my speculation is mostly moot, given how little I know of Four/Sarah Jane except that short parting clip. What do you guys think?

A.) Do you think this latest episode ret-conned to imply a deeper past affection on the Fourth Doctor's part for Sarah Jane than the original series implied? Or do you think it was actually just confirmation and not convenient rewriting of canon?

B.) Do you think that he does or doesn't see Rose as different from his other companions?


I can't answer A, but my answer for B is "yes," because of two main reasons:

(1) because he told her she outright that she was different in this episode (or at least different from Sarah Jane of the past, who he did dump)

(2) because she was clearly that significant to the Ninth Doctor, and the Doctor's Tenth incarnation was literally born from the Doctor's act of giving his life away out of love for Rose [I make the distinction here between sacrificing your life as an act of pure nobility and the deliberately romantic aspect Nine's sacrifice was given]. Though Nine and Ten are becoming more visibly different, I think the Doctor's feelings toward Rose are actually where Nine and Ten are the most similar. No surprise, given the circumstances of his regeneration.


EDIT: I guess I should say that when I think about it, my answer #2 is actually not answering the question B, it's answering a different question entirely: which is whether or not Ten loves Rose enough not to just dump her... That's a different question from "is she different from the other companions?", because I don't necessarily mean that loving Rose meant he didn't love any of his other companions.
...ARGH. I'm confusing myself here. It's really hard to try to answer these questions when I've only seen stuff of Eight, Nine, and Ten, and the most I know of the others is a 6 minute clip of Four. This is why I want your various and sundry opinions.


That's enough of my view; what say you folk?

Comments

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

B. yes, i think rose is different. there are so many things that are different with her. he keeps taking her back to her mom for visits (that's never happened before as i recall) despite his supposed dislike for domestics, the way 9 looked at her, how she and 10 are so giddy together, how he lets her show off in front of adam when they first get to sattelite 5...there are lots of little things.

Another thing to consider is the fact that Nine and Ten are living in a completely different universe than One through Eight did. He literally has nothing and no one - except his TARDIS - when he shows up in the basement of Rose's workplace, and seems to be going on the best he can. His race, his family, everything he ever had in previous incarnations is gone.

He can't go back to his own planet, Earth's always been his second home, so why not visit as often as possible? Despite a dislike of domestics, as he claims, he must miss what will never be again. He's found a new family in Rose and Jackie, along with Mickey to an extent, so it makes sense he would return as he does. Rose is a different kind of companion because he's a different kind of Doctor now. He's admitted as much twice since he's regenerated into Ten. If that means he ends up with her "4 eva", then that's what will be.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Another thing to consider is the fact that Nine and Ten are living in a completely different universe than One through Eight did. He literally has nothing and no one - except his TARDIS - when he shows up in the basement of Rose's workplace, and seems to be going on the best he can. His race, his family, everything he ever had in previous incarnations is gone.

I think I agree. It feels like that's the way they're writing the new series to be: all differences can be explained away with the Doctor's total life-changing event that was the Time War.


If that means he ends up with her "4 eva", then that's what will be.

I know you really don't ship Rose/Doctor, so I promise this is (very most likely) the only Rose/Doctor rec I'll ever shove in your direction. But I think you'll appreciate it for the use of multiple doctors and what feels like a very realistic take on the idea of a long-term relationship with Rose. I was joking that it's my new mental canon until proven otherwise because I actually think it works. I don't think it will happen, but it feels like it could</> happen. Also? Pretty, pretty language.

Anyway, it's a one-shot, and I recommend it strongly:

http://community.livejournal.com/time_and_chips/1693191.html

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

all differences can be explained away with the Doctor's total life-changing event that was the Time War.

It's possible that Nine might've ran across and taken on companions prior to Rose in "Rose". A short time, a longer time? Speculation. In her, he found the type of person he was looking for. Look at her age - 19. Just entered adulthood, searching for "who" she's going to be, sorting out what to do with her life, wondering if her job, her mom, Mickey and chips are all the future holds.

Nine, pretty much without nothing, stumbles across her. And in that one experience, thinks he might have the companion to spend an extended period of time with. He can live as differently as he likes - but has to be extra careful, so things like "Father's Day" don't continually occur - and he's found a human who is similar. Who am I now? Where I am going? Who will I be in the future? Is that all there is?

Nine was definitely about working through his personal issues. He won the war, yet at what price? Everything. The God Complex, IMHO, started back in "The Doctor Dances". "Everyone lives! This one time!" Regeneration. Ten is reverting back, somewhat, to his more spirited incarnations. Except he'll never escape the fact he's the only one with the knowledge and power that he has. Save for Boe, and even Boe has deemed him "special" by way of a prophecy. People constantly reminding him that he's a "lonely god", yeah. Way to stoke that ego, folks. He's had his moral outbursts in previous incarnations, but now? His word is LAW. "If I don't like it, it will stop." Whoa. Who died and made you Supreme Ruler of the Universe? All of the other Time Lords! ::rimshot::

Sorry, I believe I straggled off point.

But I think you'll appreciate it for the use of multiple doctors ...

Oh?

Anyway, it's a one-shot, and I recommend it strongly:

http://community.livejournal.com/time_and_chips/1693191.html

I'll check it out and give you a response. :)

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

It's possible that Nine might've ran across and taken on companions prior to Rose in "Rose".

We'd have to assume that he never saw himself in a mirror in that time, though.

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

There was the impression that he'd been hopping around time a bit before ever meeting her, so ... ::shrug:: Only mentioned it as a possibility.

Nine didn't quite strike me as the type to care to look at himself in a mirror, even to see what new face he had. But I'd pour all of that into his "Woe, I destroyed my race to save the universe, how do I go on and live with myself?" undertones.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Canon kinda contradicts itself here-- we're shown pics of him on the website from like 3 different time periods w/ Eccleston's face, but then in the same first episode he looks into the mirror for the first time.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

The pics could have been taken at any time, though - yeah, Rose isn't in them, but Clive showing them to her could have created a paradox where she finds herself in 1912 with the Doctor and thinks "wait, I can't be in this photo!" and runs off...

[alto2.livejournal.com]

People constantly reminding him that he's a "lonely god", yeah. Way to stoke that ego, folks. He's had his moral outbursts in previous incarnations, but now? His word is LAW.

The more I think about it, the more this whole god complex thing really, really bothers me. To the point where it's starting to ruin the character for me--I mean, I'm not saying he can't be flawed, but this is such a significant flaw that it sticks out terribly and seems to totally OOC. I want them to deal with it and end it very, very, very soon.

I love it when the Doctor is persuasive, or when he cleverly gets his point across, or even gets his way--because as far as the premise of this show is concerned, the Doctor getting his way generally equals the Doctor doing the right thing. But he's never had this sort of all-powerful attitude about him (yeah, he's had an inflated ego from time to time, but never to this extent), and it really doesn't sit well with me. It bothers me that Rose hasn't said "Hey, wait, what the hell happened to you? When did you become such an egomaniac?" and that nobody's put him in his place yet. It sort of strikes me as overkill for a series where you know, by definition, that if he doesn't like it, he will stop it, one way or another. I'm not really sure what the purpose of it is, but I really, really hope it ends soon. I adore Ten otherwise, and I'd hate for his run to be marred by the insane belief that he's a god. Especially because he's railed against an defeated plenty of megalomaniacs, it's damned hypocritical of him to become one, even if he is well-intentioned.

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

I'm not really sure what the purpose of it is, but I really, really hope it ends soon. I adore Ten otherwise, and I'd hate for his run to be marred by the insane belief that he's a god. Especially because he's railed against an defeated plenty of megalomaniacs, it's damned hypocritical of him to become one, even if he is well-intentioned.

I'm operating under the delusion extremely hopeful idea that it's alllllllllllllll set up for the return of the most egotistical cat ever - The Master. RTD said he'd do it, if a writer could do it properly! ::wishin'::

[alto2.livejournal.com]

That would be fabulous, if they could find the right actor for it (question: does the Master need to have that patented Delgado/Ainley look, or would we be okay if he looked like something else that's not Eric Roberts?). I just wish we didn't have to put up with all this rampant egotism along the way, even if the Master would be a great way to take care of it (though wouldn't that mean that he'd have to lose? If he defeats the Master, won't the ego just get worse??).

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

That would be fabulous, if they could find the right actor for it (question: does the Master need to have that patented Delgado/Ainley look, or would we be okay if he looked like something else that's not Eric Roberts?).

I've been tossing around a theory that ASH is The Master. He was different from the other Krillitine by admission and I would die of glee if he was. (I have lots of delusions lately it would appear. :/)

If he defeats the Master, won't the ego just get worse??

If he does. One of my favorite parts of the old series has been the fact he couldn't seem to knock the Master completely. Like a bad penny, he always turned up. On a good day, people died. Somehow, some way, someone needs to knock Ten's ass down a peg or two.

[alto2.livejournal.com]

ASH as the Master would be fabulous. You're not the only one who's been tossing that theory around--I'd be firmly on the bandwagon had someone given me really compelling reason(s) to believe it. So far, they haven't, but it's still fun to imagine that's who he might be--though, the bit at the beginning where he eats the girl and you can see the wing-shadows on the door? Kinda ruins the argument, unless he's got another one Krillitine (is that the right spelling? I've seen all sorts of variations) in there who does the feasting.

One of my favorite parts of the old series has been the fact he couldn't seem to knock the Master completely. Like a bad penny, he always turned up.

Good point! So we need something almost along the lines of a stalemate in order to give Ten a much-needeed reality check. (And frankly, I think it would do Rose the world of good to see that he's not perfect and all-knowing, which I think probably also feeds the ego issue.)