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timepiececlock[Poll #379650]
This poll was born of my extreme Saturday midday boredom.
I was thinking about this (seriously and analytically, god knows why), and I think if all the alchemists in FMA could do alchemy without circles like Ed can, and if they were trained to fight in hand-to-hand combat like Ed and Al were, they'd be a better army than the ninjas. Primarily because they'd be more flexible and more adaptable-- you can transmute *anything* with alchemy as long as you have a good imagination to feed you ideas. The shinobi of Narutoverse have to learn individual techniques that, while powerful, are limited if you're not the Hokage or something.
But I think if you were to take all the state alchemists of FMAverse as they are right now (dependent on transmutation circles, and not all hand-to-hand fighters), and pit them against the ninjas, the ninjas would win cause they have Teh Stealth Powers that allow for espionage on a level the Amestris military could only dream about.
Then again there's the whole gun issue, which might seriously throw the shinobi for a loop, since projectile weapons don't exist in Narutoverse. Hmmmm.
I cross-posted this to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
fm_alchemist and chuunin. Heh heh hehh... let's see what people think.
WARNING: when commenting, MARK ALL MANGA SPOILERS, for both Naruto and FMA. I've still seen only the anime for FMA, and don't wish to be manga-spoiled. Thank you!
WARNING #2: vague Naruto spoilers to about episode 100 or so, FMA spoilers for approximately the first 22 episodes of the series.
This poll was born of my extreme Saturday midday boredom.
I was thinking about this (seriously and analytically, god knows why), and I think if all the alchemists in FMA could do alchemy without circles like Ed can, and if they were trained to fight in hand-to-hand combat like Ed and Al were, they'd be a better army than the ninjas. Primarily because they'd be more flexible and more adaptable-- you can transmute *anything* with alchemy as long as you have a good imagination to feed you ideas. The shinobi of Narutoverse have to learn individual techniques that, while powerful, are limited if you're not the Hokage or something.
But I think if you were to take all the state alchemists of FMAverse as they are right now (dependent on transmutation circles, and not all hand-to-hand fighters), and pit them against the ninjas, the ninjas would win cause they have Teh Stealth Powers that allow for espionage on a level the Amestris military could only dream about.
Then again there's the whole gun issue, which might seriously throw the shinobi for a loop, since projectile weapons don't exist in Narutoverse. Hmmmm.
I cross-posted this to
fm_alchemist and chuunin. Heh heh hehh... let's see what people think.WARNING: when commenting, MARK ALL MANGA SPOILERS, for both Naruto and FMA. I've still seen only the anime for FMA, and don't wish to be manga-spoiled. Thank you!
WARNING #2: vague Naruto spoilers to about episode 100 or so, FMA spoilers for approximately the first 22 episodes of the series.
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no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 12:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 12:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 01:12 pm (UTC)Er...I clicked on the wrong button for the first question. I STUPID.
Anyway, I picked ninjas for everything but the Envy v. Kakashi. That one threw me for a loop. I'm not sure how it would go. If Envy knew about any of Kakashi's old friends, I think the homunculus would definitely win. Unless of course Gai was around and kicked Envy in the head with his dynamic entry.
Naruto v. Ed--I tremble at the thought of my two babies fighting but Naruto would kick Ed's ass. Seriously, people. Ed is not a good fighter. Naruto has injured Orochimaru's right hand man and taken down two of the strongest genin in the story. No contest.
Gaara would have broken the bones of whatever Alchemist he was fighting before they knew what had done it. Naruto Ninjas are shown as supah!fast and Alchemists not so much.
Then again there's the whole gun issue, which might seriously throw the shinobi for a loop, since projectile weapons don't exist in Narutoverse. Hmmmm.
I thought about that too but ninjas have techniques that would shield them from guns. First, many of them have defenses--Gaara's sand, Neji's kaiten, and Naruto has used his super kyuubi chakra to shield him from weapons as well. The ones who don't possess defenses have major talent either for speed (Lee) or illusions (Kakashi, Sakura during the secnod chuunin test, Zabuza, Itachi...).
[I did not just think about this subject for 10 minutes. Nope.]
no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 01:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 02:02 pm (UTC)Re: Ed v. Naruto
I think if you dropped them both into a ring with no advanced warning about each other's abilities, Ed would be able to trap Naruto somehow, because he's smarter than Naruto is and he's more battle-hardened, and older, and because Naruto tends to underestimate people and fight with strength rather than strategy in the early rounds of a battle. But if the fight when on for any lengthy period of time Naruto would win as soon as he figured out the limits of alchemy. But the shorter the fight would be, the higher chances Ed would win.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 02:03 pm (UTC)Spikethe caveman would win."serious" answers now, part 1
Date: 2004-11-06 02:39 pm (UTC)This one was hard. *whines* By rights, Ed should win; he's older, smarter, fights dirtier, and has the same effortless physical gracefulness in his hand-to-hand fighting that Naruto envies in Sasuke. Ed's alchemy is also more versatile for one-on-one close-range fighting than any of Naruto's techniques--the Kage Bunshin clones aren't any more skilled at close range than Naruto is himself, and the Rasengan takes too long to power up.
But ultimately, Naruto has the Kyuubi, which when his ire is really raised makes him essentially unbeatable stamina-wise by anyone else who doesn't also have a killer backup power source like a huge demon fox. Ed and Naruto fight each other to exhaustion (because while Ed has all the better tricks, Naruto just keeps coming) with Ed seemingly coming out the winner. But just when Ed is about to collapse in relief, DemonFox!Naruto surges up as newly re-energized Naruto 2.0, and Ed (who does not have an Ed 2.0) is screeeeewed.
Envy vs. Kakashi
Kakashi wins. Envy can shapeshift and is skilled at hand-to-hand combat. Kakashi can shapeshif and is skilled at hand-to-hand combat AND has all the nasty fighting abilities, summoning techniques, etc., that you get when you're a genius ninja who graduates at age six. Envy is technically unkillable by conventional means without magical/alchemical intervention, but Kakashi would beat him to a pulp and then restrain him with a Straitjacket No Jutsu or whatever until he figured out what to do with him.
Gaara vs. alchemist
Also hard. Gaara might win if he could kill his opponent with sand before he/she had time to react and transmute anything. But all of Gaara's shinyspecialness lies in his abilities to manipulate his sand, and if the alchemist changed the sand into something else harmless, Gaara would be helpless. I'm thinking of what happens to Sloth, for instance. Now, if Gaara were facing a very STUPID alchemist who transmuted the sand into, say, glass, Gaara would suddenly have a lot of very nasty jagged projectiles at his disposal...
"serious" answers now, part 2
Date: 2004-11-06 02:39 pm (UTC)alchemist army vs. ninja army
Combinining this explanation because I went with ninja on both of them for the same reasons. The alchemy technique of the FMAverse is very flexible, because like you said, you're only limited in what you transmute from one thing into another by the power of your imagination. But you're also limited in that you can only transmute *physical* objects into other physical objects. We see a bit of alchemists getting into the metaphysical (Al's soul transfixion, the human transmutation that creates the homonculi), but only super-genius alchemists seem capable of this and anyway it always enacts a horrible physical price that would really not be practical in the longterm for a battleground. The ninja deal in both the physical AND the metaphysical, which would enable them to get around the physical defenses the alchemists would put up. The alchemists would be helpless against, say, Ino's body-switching jutsu, Shikamaru's shadow-manipulation jutsu, or Tsunade/Kabuto's medical-ninja nastiness.
The ninja structure is also very military in nature (the ranks of command, the military garb, etc.), so the ninja'd be able to hold ranks on a battlefield against the traditional FMA military. And the ninja, trained in assassination and illusion techniques as well as hand-to-hand, would be much more flexible and adept at guerrilla warfare than traditional military. They'd be like the British vs. the colonists in the early Revolutionary War--the Ninja-Minutemen could stay up in the trees and pick off the Alchemist Redcoats bit-by-bit by ambush.
I think the alchemists with their guns and cannons would cause a heavy round of casualties in the first wave of the ninja attack because they'd have the element of surprise. But once the shinobi had a chance to fall back, regroup, and compare notes on "the shiny metal things that go BOOM and spit metal", they wouldn't get fooled by the same trick twice. They'd see bullets as really fast-moving shuriken, and they'd be able to either dodge them or erect some kind of defensive shield against them.
....oh my GOD, I just spent half an hour typing up an essay on why fictional magic ninja would kick the asses of fictional magic alchemists.
Ummm. Thanks for the distraction?
Re: "serious" answers now, part 2
Date: 2004-11-06 03:05 pm (UTC)But once the shinobi had a chance to fall back, regroup, and compare notes on "the shiny metal things that go BOOM and spit metal", they wouldn't get fooled by the same trick twice.
I love how you phrased that.
And the ninja, trained in assassination and illusion techniques as well as hand-to-hand, would be much more flexible and adept at guerrilla warfare than traditional military.
While alchemy is more flexible on an individual basis, the ninja army is more flexible as a unit, and approach warfare from a completely different perspective. Once they got used to avoiding or disabling the guns, they could cut the Amestris army to ribbons.
Then again, this is assuming the armies are roughly comparable in size in the battle. In the ninjas had a serious minority in numbers they'd get overrun.
The ninja structure is also very military in nature
That's one of the reasons I love Naruto so much. It has the modern sensibility of having the ninjas be a military organization, and the village be a company town (so to speak), instead of a clan-like group of people with a medieval approach to loyalty and warfare sensibilities. Having Naruto!ninjas be so different from traditional portrayal of ninjas in terms of organization makes them adaptable to modern audiences.
The alchemists would be helpless against, say, Ino's body-switching jutsu, Shikamaru's shadow-manipulation jutsu, or Tsunade/Kabuto's medical-ninja nastiness.
In a way I think you're right, but in a way I disagree. Take Kimbly for example. If Shikamaru froze Kimbly with his shadow but Kimbly was already touching Shikamaru (or, if he had the red stone to amplify his power, just being near enough), then Kimbly doesn't have to move to activate his transmutation circle tatoos. And once Shikamaru was dead the jutsuu trap would not be a problem.
In that way I think alchemy is better in individual fighting: it takes less time and less movement. If you you're Ed, you don't even have to draw a circle. And if you're someone like Kimbly or Roy, you can carry your drawn circles on you at all times. That means the minimum movement is cut down even less. And it doesn't take time to activate alchemy; from what we've seen it's almost instantaneous. The exception being killing homunculous, who apparently take a little longer to work through. Hand seals and jutsuu, however, take time and take moveable fingers. Against other ninjas that's not a problem because the other ninjas have the same handicap, but against instantaneous alchemy it is not as good. Which is why in a one-on-one fight, I'd rather have alchemy.
But as an army, I'd rather be on the ninja side. One word: espionage. The ninja would win that war so frelling fast.
....oh my GOD, I just spent half an hour typing up an essay on why fictional magic ninja would kick the asses of fictional magic alchemists.
Ummm. Thanks for the distraction?
::grin:: You're welcome. And thanks for the detailed answers! I love geeky postulating on hypothetical battles with hypothetical imaginary characters who exist in totally different imaginary worlds.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 03:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 03:52 pm (UTC)Well, there is superstrength and near invulnerability... but yeah I sided with Kakashi too. Cause he's Kakashi the genius 6 year old chunnin.
Just... ninjutsu in general is more flexible than alchemy, even alchemy-without-a-circle
That I have to disagree with. I think alchemy is more flexible and faster to perform than ninjutsu on an individual basis, because ninjutsuu is limited by how many techniques you've learned and what you have the power to perform, whereas alchemy is only limited by the limits of imagination-- once you understand the science behind it and you have the circle (or don't need one), you can use it to manipulate anything in any way you can think up.
But as a military unit, I have to go with the ninjas. Their guerilla warfare and their absolutely frightening espionage capabilities would win against even an all-alchemist an army of Amestris, pretty darn fast.
Re: Proof I have no life, but still fun
Date: 2004-11-06 04:28 pm (UTC)Re: Proof I have no life, but still fun
Date: 2004-11-06 04:39 pm (UTC)I agree that Gaara would lose, but not because of glass-- actually he would probably still be able to control the glass, which would give him many sharp objects now. But if the alchemist disabled his sand somehow and got a lethal strike in before the demon woke up to protest, Gaara would definitely lose. He has limited jutsu beyond the sand and doesn't seem like a very physical fighter.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 05:02 pm (UTC)Re: "serious" answers now, part 1
Date: 2004-11-06 05:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 05:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 05:05 pm (UTC)Re: Proof I have no life, but still fun
Date: 2004-11-06 05:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 05:26 pm (UTC)NARUTO SPOILERS:
people keep on saying how Gaara would be beat if an alchemest were to transmute his sand. He can get more though, he can turn all the dirt around him into sand.
i find it kind of hard to see the alchemist to turn so much sand into something else.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 05:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 06:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 06:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 06:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 08:29 pm (UTC)But you gotta remember, alchemy controlls atmosphere too. So Ed could do what Roy Mustang does or what Kimbly does, and incinerate the air around all the clones, killing them all intantly in one attack. Furthermore I think he'd fight dirtier than Naruto, and have more nasty, imaginative tricks. Naruto doesn't know all that many jutsu yet, and he's not a particularly dirty fighter (Edward definitely is.) Edward is also older, and smarter than Naruto. Not older by much, but maybe enough to make a difference at this age.
I do think that in a long-term battle Naruto would pull through because he's just that relentless and eventually he would call upon the Kyuubi, but I imagine that what would most likely happen is that Ed would do something to trap or restrain Naruto and end the fight very early on, not letting it get to the point where Naruto outlasts him in endurance.
Edward against Gama Bunta though... now there's an idea. I bet Ed would try to conjure up that giant canon he used in episode 13 and blow Gama Bunta up. Wouldn't work, but it would be amusing.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-06 08:31 pm (UTC)