vote!

[timepiececlock]

[Poll #379650]

This poll was born of my extreme Saturday midday boredom.

I was thinking about this (seriously and analytically, god knows why), and I think if all the alchemists in FMA could do alchemy without circles like Ed can, and if they were trained to fight in hand-to-hand combat like Ed and Al were, they'd be a better army than the ninjas. Primarily because they'd be more flexible and more adaptable-- you can transmute *anything* with alchemy as long as you have a good imagination to feed you ideas. The shinobi of Narutoverse have to learn individual techniques that, while powerful, are limited if you're not the Hokage or something.

But I think if you were to take all the state alchemists of FMAverse as they are right now (dependent on transmutation circles, and not all hand-to-hand fighters), and pit them against the ninjas, the ninjas would win cause they have Teh Stealth Powers that allow for espionage on a level the Amestris military could only dream about.

Then again there's the whole gun issue, which might seriously throw the shinobi for a loop, since projectile weapons don't exist in Narutoverse. Hmmmm.


I cross-posted this to fm_alchemist and chuunin. Heh heh hehh... let's see what people think.

WARNING: when commenting, MARK ALL MANGA SPOILERS, for both Naruto and FMA. I've still seen only the anime for FMA, and don't wish to be manga-spoiled. Thank you!

WARNING #2: vague Naruto spoilers to about episode 100 or so, FMA spoilers for approximately the first 22 episodes of the series.

Comments

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

I'd explain my answers, but that would require using evidence from recent Naruto manga chapters.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I just added my own explanation above. Thanks for your restraint, though. :)

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

I only changed one answer after having read the FMA manga. I totally think Envy could take Kakashi down in a one on one battle now. TOTALLY.

[riddering.livejournal.com]

*headesk*

Er...I clicked on the wrong button for the first question. I STUPID.

Anyway, I picked ninjas for everything but the Envy v. Kakashi. That one threw me for a loop. I'm not sure how it would go. If Envy knew about any of Kakashi's old friends, I think the homunculus would definitely win. Unless of course Gai was around and kicked Envy in the head with his dynamic entry.

Naruto v. Ed--I tremble at the thought of my two babies fighting but Naruto would kick Ed's ass. Seriously, people. Ed is not a good fighter. Naruto has injured Orochimaru's right hand man and taken down two of the strongest genin in the story. No contest.

Gaara would have broken the bones of whatever Alchemist he was fighting before they knew what had done it. Naruto Ninjas are shown as supah!fast and Alchemists not so much.

Then again there's the whole gun issue, which might seriously throw the shinobi for a loop, since projectile weapons don't exist in Narutoverse. Hmmmm.

I thought about that too but ninjas have techniques that would shield them from guns. First, many of them have defenses--Gaara's sand, Neji's kaiten, and Naruto has used his super kyuubi chakra to shield him from weapons as well. The ones who don't possess defenses have major talent either for speed (Lee) or illusions (Kakashi, Sakura during the secnod chuunin test, Zabuza, Itachi...).

[I did not just think about this subject for 10 minutes. Nope.]

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty certain you can edit your answers if you lick on the poll number, then click "Fill out poll."

Re: Ed v. Naruto

I think if you dropped them both into a ring with no advanced warning about each other's abilities, Ed would be able to trap Naruto somehow, because he's smarter than Naruto is and he's more battle-hardened, and older, and because Naruto tends to underestimate people and fight with strength rather than strategy in the early rounds of a battle. But if the fight when on for any lengthy period of time Naruto would win as soon as he figured out the limits of alchemy. But the shorter the fight would be, the higher chances Ed would win.

[octopedingenue]

Screw them both, THE CAVEMEN WILL KICK ALL THEIR ASSES!!!

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Spike the caveman would win.

[jasiri.livejournal.com]

I dunno... Do the spacemen have all their scientific weapons?

"serious" answers now, part 1

[octopedingenue]

Ed vs. Naruto
This one was hard. *whines* By rights, Ed should win; he's older, smarter, fights dirtier, and has the same effortless physical gracefulness in his hand-to-hand fighting that Naruto envies in Sasuke. Ed's alchemy is also more versatile for one-on-one close-range fighting than any of Naruto's techniques--the Kage Bunshin clones aren't any more skilled at close range than Naruto is himself, and the Rasengan takes too long to power up.

But ultimately, Naruto has the Kyuubi, which when his ire is really raised makes him essentially unbeatable stamina-wise by anyone else who doesn't also have a killer backup power source like a huge demon fox. Ed and Naruto fight each other to exhaustion (because while Ed has all the better tricks, Naruto just keeps coming) with Ed seemingly coming out the winner. But just when Ed is about to collapse in relief, DemonFox!Naruto surges up as newly re-energized Naruto 2.0, and Ed (who does not have an Ed 2.0) is screeeeewed.

Envy vs. Kakashi

Kakashi wins. Envy can shapeshift and is skilled at hand-to-hand combat. Kakashi can shapeshif and is skilled at hand-to-hand combat AND has all the nasty fighting abilities, summoning techniques, etc., that you get when you're a genius ninja who graduates at age six. Envy is technically unkillable by conventional means without magical/alchemical intervention, but Kakashi would beat him to a pulp and then restrain him with a Straitjacket No Jutsu or whatever until he figured out what to do with him.

Gaara vs. alchemist

Also hard. Gaara might win if he could kill his opponent with sand before he/she had time to react and transmute anything. But all of Gaara's shinyspecialness lies in his abilities to manipulate his sand, and if the alchemist changed the sand into something else harmless, Gaara would be helpless. I'm thinking of what happens to Sloth, for instance. Now, if Gaara were facing a very STUPID alchemist who transmuted the sand into, say, glass, Gaara would suddenly have a lot of very nasty jagged projectiles at his disposal...

Re: "serious" answers now, part 1

[toad-senin.livejournal.com]

i don't want to leave any spoilers but gaara can get more sand no question about it.

"serious" answers now, part 2

[octopedingenue]

alchemy powers vs. ninja jutsu
alchemist army vs. ninja army

Combinining this explanation because I went with ninja on both of them for the same reasons. The alchemy technique of the FMAverse is very flexible, because like you said, you're only limited in what you transmute from one thing into another by the power of your imagination. But you're also limited in that you can only transmute *physical* objects into other physical objects. We see a bit of alchemists getting into the metaphysical (Al's soul transfixion, the human transmutation that creates the homonculi), but only super-genius alchemists seem capable of this and anyway it always enacts a horrible physical price that would really not be practical in the longterm for a battleground. The ninja deal in both the physical AND the metaphysical, which would enable them to get around the physical defenses the alchemists would put up. The alchemists would be helpless against, say, Ino's body-switching jutsu, Shikamaru's shadow-manipulation jutsu, or Tsunade/Kabuto's medical-ninja nastiness.

The ninja structure is also very military in nature (the ranks of command, the military garb, etc.), so the ninja'd be able to hold ranks on a battlefield against the traditional FMA military. And the ninja, trained in assassination and illusion techniques as well as hand-to-hand, would be much more flexible and adept at guerrilla warfare than traditional military. They'd be like the British vs. the colonists in the early Revolutionary War--the Ninja-Minutemen could stay up in the trees and pick off the Alchemist Redcoats bit-by-bit by ambush.

I think the alchemists with their guns and cannons would cause a heavy round of casualties in the first wave of the ninja attack because they'd have the element of surprise. But once the shinobi had a chance to fall back, regroup, and compare notes on "the shiny metal things that go BOOM and spit metal", they wouldn't get fooled by the same trick twice. They'd see bullets as really fast-moving shuriken, and they'd be able to either dodge them or erect some kind of defensive shield against them.


....oh my GOD, I just spent half an hour typing up an essay on why fictional magic ninja would kick the asses of fictional magic alchemists.

Ummm. Thanks for the distraction?

Re: "serious" answers now, part 2

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

That's basically why I thought the ninjas would win too. If all the alchemists were like Ed then it's 50/50, but since most of them are like Mustang or Kimbly or Tucker, not so much.

But once the shinobi had a chance to fall back, regroup, and compare notes on "the shiny metal things that go BOOM and spit metal", they wouldn't get fooled by the same trick twice.

I love how you phrased that.

And the ninja, trained in assassination and illusion techniques as well as hand-to-hand, would be much more flexible and adept at guerrilla warfare than traditional military.

While alchemy is more flexible on an individual basis, the ninja army is more flexible as a unit, and approach warfare from a completely different perspective. Once they got used to avoiding or disabling the guns, they could cut the Amestris army to ribbons.

Then again, this is assuming the armies are roughly comparable in size in the battle. In the ninjas had a serious minority in numbers they'd get overrun.

The ninja structure is also very military in nature

That's one of the reasons I love Naruto so much. It has the modern sensibility of having the ninjas be a military organization, and the village be a company town (so to speak), instead of a clan-like group of people with a medieval approach to loyalty and warfare sensibilities. Having Naruto!ninjas be so different from traditional portrayal of ninjas in terms of organization makes them adaptable to modern audiences.

The alchemists would be helpless against, say, Ino's body-switching jutsu, Shikamaru's shadow-manipulation jutsu, or Tsunade/Kabuto's medical-ninja nastiness.

In a way I think you're right, but in a way I disagree. Take Kimbly for example. If Shikamaru froze Kimbly with his shadow but Kimbly was already touching Shikamaru (or, if he had the red stone to amplify his power, just being near enough), then Kimbly doesn't have to move to activate his transmutation circle tatoos. And once Shikamaru was dead the jutsuu trap would not be a problem.

In that way I think alchemy is better in individual fighting: it takes less time and less movement. If you you're Ed, you don't even have to draw a circle. And if you're someone like Kimbly or Roy, you can carry your drawn circles on you at all times. That means the minimum movement is cut down even less. And it doesn't take time to activate alchemy; from what we've seen it's almost instantaneous. The exception being killing homunculous, who apparently take a little longer to work through. Hand seals and jutsuu, however, take time and take moveable fingers. Against other ninjas that's not a problem because the other ninjas have the same handicap, but against instantaneous alchemy it is not as good. Which is why in a one-on-one fight, I'd rather have alchemy.

But as an army, I'd rather be on the ninja side. One word: espionage. The ninja would win that war so frelling fast.

....oh my GOD, I just spent half an hour typing up an essay on why fictional magic ninja would kick the asses of fictional magic alchemists.

Ummm. Thanks for the distraction?

::grin:: You're welcome. And thanks for the detailed answers! I love geeky postulating on hypothetical battles with hypothetical imaginary characters who exist in totally different imaginary worlds.

[malika.livejournal.com]

Eep, I had to answer this in an unbiased manner >.> and I'm sad to say that I think the ninjas would triumph over alchemists (except in the case of Kakashi vs. Envy, 'cause other than shapeshifting and hand to hand combat, Envy's got nothing). Just... ninjutsu in general is more flexible than alchemy, even alchemy-without-a-circle.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

(except in the case of Kakashi vs. Envy, 'cause other than shapeshifting and hand to hand combat, Envy's got nothing)

Well, there is superstrength and near invulnerability... but yeah I sided with Kakashi too. Cause he's Kakashi the genius 6 year old chunnin.

Just... ninjutsu in general is more flexible than alchemy, even alchemy-without-a-circle

That I have to disagree with. I think alchemy is more flexible and faster to perform than ninjutsu on an individual basis, because ninjutsuu is limited by how many techniques you've learned and what you have the power to perform, whereas alchemy is only limited by the limits of imagination-- once you understand the science behind it and you have the circle (or don't need one), you can use it to manipulate anything in any way you can think up.

But as a military unit, I have to go with the ninjas. Their guerilla warfare and their absolutely frightening espionage capabilities would win against even an all-alchemist an army of Amestris, pretty darn fast.

Re: Proof I have no life, but still fun

[nzmongoose.livejournal.com]

Sorry! *whacks self on head* Those are FMA manga spoilers.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I think it's safe to say Itachi couldn't copy alchemy. He could predict her movements or hypnotize her, and he certainly could dodge (provided it was something dodgeable, and didn't involve turning the air in his lungs into water or something) and attack, but he wouldn't be able to copy the alchemy via the Sharingan because it's not a jutsu, and on top of that because he hasn't seen the gate.

[toad-senin.livejournal.com]

well i'll have to get into spoilers of the naruto type.

NARUTO SPOILERS:

people keep on saying how Gaara would be beat if an alchemest were to transmute his sand. He can get more though, he can turn all the dirt around him into sand.

i find it kind of hard to see the alchemist to turn so much sand into something else.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I like the way you think!

But you gotta remember, alchemy controlls atmosphere too. So Ed could do what Roy Mustang does or what Kimbly does, and incinerate the air around all the clones, killing them all intantly in one attack. Furthermore I think he'd fight dirtier than Naruto, and have more nasty, imaginative tricks. Naruto doesn't know all that many jutsu yet, and he's not a particularly dirty fighter (Edward definitely is.) Edward is also older, and smarter than Naruto. Not older by much, but maybe enough to make a difference at this age.

I do think that in a long-term battle Naruto would pull through because he's just that relentless and eventually he would call upon the Kyuubi, but I imagine that what would most likely happen is that Ed would do something to trap or restrain Naruto and end the fight very early on, not letting it get to the point where Naruto outlasts him in endurance.

Edward against Gama Bunta though... now there's an idea. I bet Ed would try to conjure up that giant canon he used in episode 13 and blow Gama Bunta up. Wouldn't work, but it would be amusing.

[mattador.livejournal.com]

I agree with you generally on alchemists vs. ninjas.

Gaara would get owned by any competent alchmist because they would transmute all his sand into something else.

If Gaara got the drop on them, they would die.

Naruto's immense energy and creative potential would allow him to be Ed, sorry to say- unless Ed got the drop on him and took him out before he could tap said immense energy.

Envy vs. Kakashi... I'd really have liked a 'draw' option. That would be one hell of a fight.

The extreme versatility of alchemy power ON A LARGE SCALE could, I think, defeat the ninjas, but in most one-on-one duels I would back the ninja.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

unless Ed got the drop on him and took him out before he could tap said immense energy

That's why I still fall back on Ed... Naruto very rarely calls on the Nine-tails power and Ed could probably incapacitate Naruto before they got to that point in the fight.

[hecatehatesthat.livejournal.com]

Okay, I picked Naruto over Ed in the poll, but partially because people were overwhelmingly betting on Ed and I think it's much closer than that -- who would win would depend largely on the conditions of the fight. Ed could win if he kept it short -- so yeah, if you dropped them both in a ring with no prior knowledge of each other's abilities, Ed would figure out how to take Naruto out while Naruto was still puzzling over the fact that Ed was doing all these strange jutsus with the same single hand seal. Because Ed is fucking smart. He'd also have the advantage of having no social conditioning to wait while Naruto charged his chakra / did his hand seals and whatever. Naruto would never get the chance to touch Ed -- until he got pissed off. If Ed didn't knock Naruto totally unconscious pretty quickly, beat-up Naruto would eventually, as you said somewhere, wake up Naruto 2.0 and blow Ed away with the raw Nine-Tails power. If you put them in real-world situation in which Ed was (or Naruto thought he was) threatening someone Naruto loves, Naruto would go demon even sooner and Ed would lose much of his short-fight advantage.

I'd rather have alchemy in a hand-to-hand fight myself, though -- I think Naruto is an exception (though not the only one) in that Ed would beat most of the other ninjas as they don't have demon power to draw on. I think Sasuke, Kakashi, Neji etc. would be at a particular disadvantage because their fancy-pants eyes wouldn't do them any good against alchemy -- re: the debate above about whether alchemy could be copied, I'm with you that its reliance on science, not chakra, and technical calculations would prevent the ninjas from using it even if they could "see" what it was, which they probably couldn't.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Ed would figure out how to take Naruto out while Naruto was still puzzling over the fact that Ed was doing all these strange jutsus with the same single hand seal. Because Ed is fucking smart. He'd also have the advantage of having no social conditioning to wait while Naruto charged his chakra / did his hand seals and whatever. Naruto would never get the chance to touch Ed -- until he got pissed off. If Ed didn't knock Naruto totally unconscious pretty quickly, beat-up Naruto would eventually, as you said somewhere, wake up Naruto 2.0 and blow Ed away with the raw Nine-Tails power. If you put them in real-world situation in which Ed was (or Naruto thought he was) threatening someone Naruto loves, Naruto would go demon even sooner and Ed would lose much of his short-fight advantage.

Yup. What you just said. And with the added comment that if it were a one-round fight, Edward, but if it were a 2 or 3 round fight, Naruto cause Naruto would crank out the demon power and then Edward would be so busy protecting himself he wouldn't be able to do anything offensive.

But yeah-- Naruto's an exception. So is Gaara, and so are the 3 Sannin, because they're so old and powerful. Most of the normal ninjas aren't so unstoppable.

Actually, a Kakashi v. Edward fight would be pretty dang interesting, because all of Naruto's naivte and surprise at not understanding the alchemy attacks would not be an issue-- Kakashi is also wicked smart and considerably older than both Naruto and Ed, and he'd adapt to the new fight conditions quickly, even without the Sharingan.

Wow. Like 130 people have filled out this poll... someone oughtta write a crossover at least to talk about all this.

[frugar.livejournal.com]

Not going to take the time to read through everyone else's comments, so if others have already stated things I say, well... sorry.

1) Naruto is too much of a little kid mentally. Ed's smart, and tricky. He'd totally whoop Naruto.

2) I voted for Envy because Kakashi's sharingan really wont help him out in the battle. Envy doesn't actively use any "powers"... his body just responds to his emotions/thoughts... just like all the other homunculus.

3) Roy Mustang would totally OWN Gaara. Heat + Sand = Glass. Roy Vs Gaara = Gaara being PWNED.

4) Ed's powers are quicker than any jutsus, simpler to perform than any jutsus, and more versatile than any jutsus. 'Nuff said.

5) The army of superninjas wins in the end thanks to the fact that they'll must likely a) use stealth, and b) have some sort of summoners to summon huge freaking monsters to rain death and destruction down upon the state alchemists.

[(Anonymous)]

the only thing is that the army (like any army) has special ops that could probably utilize stealth much like the ninjas. they might be a force to be reckoned with. >.> and ed could move a large statue to crush the army. XP because ed is god and i worship him.

i like your reasons! especially the roy vs gaara one. X3

-shino- (http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/shinotenshi)

[(Anonymous)]

I think the ninja would win in just about every case. People seem to think that the seals ninja make are more cumbersome than the alchemists, but considering the average ninja speed, it happens pretty much instantaneously. If you want to go to extremes, characters like Itachi can do hand seaks without even appearing to move. While the versatility of the alchemist would be a problem, the ninja have the speed, strength, and experience to help them adapt. Ninja are trained from their childhood to fight, where as most state alchemists do not even enter the military until they are much older.

Even Naruto can do the hand seals for his Kage Bushin immediately now. Plus, if he needs time for something, he knows how to stall. Naruto is young, but he already has an incredible amount of experience fighting people better than him. I do not see why Ed would be an exception. Plus, Naruto's talent lies in his timing. With someone like Ed who knows nothing about the sneakiness of a ninja, even a recently graduated academy student could leave behind a clone in disguise and then sneak up behind their opponent. If Ed did not get Naruto down in pretty much one hit, I think Naruto could take him down without even resorting so some of his more drastic moves or the Kyuubi.

People who are voting against Gaara are severely misunderstanding his powers. Someone up there already mentioned it, but I will as well.


**Spoilers for the Naruto Manga***

Using alchemy on Gaara's sand would be pointless. Gaara can basically do alchemy as well. In his fight against Kimimaro, he turned the entire are into sand, because he needed more. If an alchemist turns his sand into say, glass as people have mentioned, Gaara can either turn it back, or make more sand out of something else. Then there is still his ultimate defense, which would protect him. Gaara can also fly on the sand, so he could fight from a distance if he wanted. And then there is always pulling his opponent underground and leaving him to die, or the simple but effective tidal wave of sand. It would have to be one incredibly tricky and powerful alchemist to find a way to even get close enough to Gaara to do anything, especially when Gaara is also incredibly sneaky.

[alita-b-angel.livejournal.com]

Is is like the ultimate question to life and the universe. Difficult to call.


I thought Naruto would own just on sheer power, of course I'm drawing from the later manga chapters, and it really depends where you take these two characters out of in their timelines. It also comes down to the fact Ed gets more sloppy when he's angry, and Naruto doesn't, and coming from their personalities, if they're pitched in a room, it'll get down to "Yo mamma" and "short" insults pretty quick, and then it's up to who gets more angry over their angsty past. Ed, while more cunning and smart is predictably human. He hasn't got Naruto's stamina or quick healing or the kyuubi.

Also brings into the question: Can you transmute a clone?

Kakashi owns. Envy really, just has nothing on Kakashi.

Gaara and the random alchemist: I'm going for Gaara here since while they COULD in THEORY transmute the sand, the sheer AMOUNT of sand Gaara can summon would overwhelm them. Look at the first ep of FMA, where Ed's in the desert. In theory, he could've transmuted the sand around him into something else, but the most likely result is another object made of sand, unless he wants to kill himself from using too much power.

Gaara is also very very insane. Normal humans like the alchemists don't like insane people. He also happens to be a little kid. I get the feeling most adult alchemists there (and they would HAVE to have that kind of experience to face Gaara) wouldn't want to fight a kid. They'd underestimate him, and woosh, Coffined before they can even get out the chalk.

So really, in default it seems like the ninja win, but that's assuming some unlikely numbers. Only 5 hidden villages (six?) with about only 100+ ninjas in each one, which have to be of age, and well trained enough to fight the alchemists... who seem to have more of them. The alchemists, in sheer cannon fodder could beat the ninjas after the inital gun-spray!surprise attack... they have all those people who are not alchemists, but are part of the program and thus would be made to fight too in their officies.

Hard to call.

I feel like such a nerd.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Good points--- you're the first person who brought up Gaara being a child and I don't know why I hadn't considered that before. Definitely a psychological handicap for the alchemist.

Is is like the ultimate question to life and the universe. ...I feel like such a nerd.

Don't. There's at least 151 OTHER folks just like you. And dude; over the course of this poll I've written what amounts to 2 or 3 full essays thinking about this very question. ::shakes head:: Who would have thought it was such a contested question? But ultimately I'm glad that people split their votes for the two fandoms across the questions, and no one side uniformly won. It's a good show of responses, all varied and well thought out. Well, most of them well thought out.

[kiwi-socks.livejournal.com]

1 - Naruto: Because he's a ninja, which means he's ninja-fast. And the whole orgy of clones at his disposal, which not only because of sheer numbers, Ed would be puzzling how they all came out of nowhere (Mass human transmutation?)

2 - Envy: Kakashi's strong, but not enough to beat aa giant lizard with anger issues and an entire village of lives.

3 - Strongest Alchemist: Father can choke a bitch and no one can do anything about it, as far as we know (Though he would have to be bothered)

4 - Justus: There's so much more shit you can do; alchemy is extremely limited with the conservation of matter.

5 - I...have no idea.

[donna-c-punk.livejournal.com]

Father would pwn everyone in BOTH universes.

[dark-delusions.livejournal.com]

agree with you, for all the points stated and for one other key one: as far as i can tell, despite equivalent exchange, it takes a lot for a GOOD alchemist to become tired after transmuting, however shinobi use personal energy from within themselves and once that energy is exhausted...well, they aren't going to be killing many alchemists

[ketita.livejournal.com]

Well. I'm going to join the party, just because this is a fun debate (even if I'm two days late).

I think the major answer comes down to really, how far can alchemy go when changing something, and how versatile chakra is in that sense.
I believe that alchemy can reach a sub-atomic level, on the physical sense. In the metaphysical sense, we've seen that alchemy can be used to transmute a soul.

About Gaara. The question is, what does he create the sand from? Can he take completely unrelated substances and turn them into sand? Can he turn a pile of iron or graphite or florine into sand? On the other hand, an alchemist, certainly can take sand and completely change the chemical make up. I think the question goes far beyond whether or not the alchemist could transmute the sand into glass or not.

In terms of an all-out battle between alchemists and ninja. If push came to shove, remember that the alchemists can always fall back on the Philosopher's Stone, and Scar's decomposition technique.
True, Ed (for one) probably wouldn't ever want to resort to such tactics, but I think that if the alchemists brought those into the game the war would be extremely short.
They could just make a huge transmutation circle, and that's the end of the story. I don't think any of the ninjutsu (of any type) would help anybody resist that. The stone array pretty much just turns all the life energy into stone energy, end of story. It's not something you can exactly resist.
And I'd say the same thing about Scar's decomposition technique. If they can get close enough to touch at least once, that's the end of the ninja. It might even be possible to do it long distance, I have no idea. Either way, I think if the alchemists resorted to human transmutation, I actually think they would win.

As for the people claiming espionage, remember that the Amestris military used those tactics too, with the chimeras etc. They're not completely into head-on warfare.
Either way, the competition would be very, very close.

In the case of Ed vs. Naruto, I belive that Ed has the capability to win, but he would be handicapped by the fact that he refuses to take a human life. He wouldn't be pulling out his strongest attacks, and he probably wouldn't even think of using human transmutation against Naruto.
What could Naruto possibly do to him that would convince Edward to go all-out against him, and try to completely destroy him? Think of how long it took Ed to decide to kill the homunculi (and that's just in the anime, not necessarily the manga), and they did much more to him than Naruto could probably ever do.

Naruto, however, is less inhibited when it comes to fighting, considering the culture he grew up in. So I think that in a play-battle Naruto would probably win, but in a battle to the death, with them both completely committed, I would probably bet on Ed. Mostly because Ed's a lot more intelligent than Naruto, and his alchemy is more versatile than the ninjutsu.

Whew. Glad I got that out of my system. Nerdiness is fun, hey.

[lunymoony.livejournal.com]

I feel the need to comment on this.. Well, I think my opinions might be a bit biased toward Naruto.. I'm not that big of a FMA fan, only seen about 30 eps of the anime, so I can't really argue on that. However, there are a few things I'd like to say about Naruto(anime mostly..)

Anways. Can't say much about the first two questions because I don't know what Ed and Envy are capable of. (Then why am I here commenting? bleh.) But I read someone's comment about Ed doesn't want/like to kill. Neither does Naruto (unless said person wants him dead in return?). I mean, he didn't want to kill Haku...

I must say Gaara's sand is like an instant kill.. Once you're caught, you'd be crushed to death. Alchemist can transmute the sand, but the sand is 'special', and I don't think they can transmute even w/o circle when their movements are stopped by the sand.

Alchemy vs Jutsu. Even without circle, from what I remember in episodes I've watched, you still need something to use to transmute(ie the groud cement.) Jutsus.. Usually elements that come out of chakra. There's also things like summons, genjutsus, etc.. You can avoid attacks, but not things like genjutsu.

State alchemists vs top Ninjas. You've got fire vs fires, lightning vs lightnings, and strength&muscle vs strengths&speeds already... And there's 2x for Ninja side, even if one's an adult the other a child. Can't say much without spoiling things.. but I don't think it really counts, but still..
I don't know about more than the basics about the philosopher's stone, so I can't conterargue about it.
There are a lot of ninjas. Who knows how many, but there are 5 big hidden villages full of ninjas, plus smaller not so power villages, so surely there'd be LOTS. So, that'd help with fighting and stuff. Plus, there are medical ninjas who heals ninjas. I don't think there are any medical alchemists. They don't seem to can heal people without a fake stone. (Up to ep 30)

Yeah. Something like that.. shrugs.

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In the numbers game, I think the military of Amestris (Ed's nation) has Leaf Village whooped. There's probably not more than a few hundred chunin-and-above ninja in the whole village, and that's a very generous estimate-- it could be less than a hundred.

On the other hand, there's probably tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of soldiers in the Amestris military. Given that the government is so expansive and so many of the common citizens seem to be involved in the military in some manner (even if not directly under its command)-- they've got the numbers of a European country around the turn of the 20th century. If it comes down to numbers, the ninjas would be gone.

In all likelihood, though, the Konoha ninjas could probably do enough damage that the military would retreat or forfeit before it got to a numbers game.