Death Note 17... very minor spoilers.

[timepiececlock]

It really bugs me that the only female in this cast is an insane Bratz doll come to life. Where are all the women? This whole show is so... male. I usually don't pay attention, but it's incredibly obvious here. Everything about this is masculine, from the simple things like an all-male cast or the lone female as a negative stereotype, to the subtler things, like the way L and Kira think, and the way the author explains things. I don't believe that certain things are strictly masculine or feminine, but the show certainly fits the comon stereotypes of those labels. This show may be daring in its anti-protagonist and anti-antagonist choices and in its casual treatment of murder, but it's not nearly as subvertive as it could be. It's boys playing a boy game against boys, where the only girl gets used as a tool for the male characters' plot advancement.

I know that the cast is cops+Kira and the majority of cops are men, but female police officers do exist and they could do with having a few on this task force. If nothing else, at least to provide a different perspective in analysis. It seems a very basic distinction to make, but it's an important one if you want to have a full view of any situation. They should find themselves a female mathematician or logician, and a female psychologist too. For that matter, this whole team should have more intellectual fields represented than just criminal justice aherents.

I have another thought, too: if L were really as smart as he supposedly is, he'd have an entirely separate investigation team acting and reporting to him, completely unconnected to the police task force. He's too vulnerable and the information/scope too limited with just these people. Plus, he looks like the type to have a control group, like in any social experiment. In some ways he's using Light as a control when it comes to comparing the task force's theories, but that's a double-edged sword considering how suspect he is.

Nobody can build a mega sky-scraper in a few months. Pipe dream, and not a very good one. I hope we're supposed to believe that he bought and refitted it, not built it from the ground up. Even when you're rushing materials and financed by the best, shit like that takes 2 or more years to finish from cement slab to indoor networked security system.

Comments

[flamingly-fey.livejournal.com]

Oh my god. Thank you. Thank you. Honestly, the lack of female characters beyond Notebook Cannon Fodder FBI Woman from the earliest chapters and "an insane Bratz doll come to life" bothered me too... but you're the first person I've ever seen speak up about it.

To my shame, I haven't, mostly because the anime club I'm in is definitely more of a boys' club than it ought to be; while I dearly love some of the guys there, I don't think their grasp on the realities of feminism is such that I can bring stuff like this up without being laughed out of the room. Also, with a few notable exceptions, the girls there aren't the type to realize things like what you've pointed out here (can you say shallow fangirls? who generally think feminism is equivalent to misandry?)... but are the type to flip out at me for bringing things like that up. (It's "just an anime", after all, and if I think it's being sexist I "don't understand the different cultural standards".)

Wow, teal deer is teeeeeal....

I thought in the comic the skyscraper was just a bought and refitted hotel, but I could be wrong. It's been almost a year since I read any of it.

[jaina.livejournal.com]

I hate that Misa annoys me so much, because in a male-dominated show like this, I WANT to like any ladies I can, yanno?

The thing about Death Note is that as much as I do like L, neither he nor Light are anywhere near as smart as the series keeps TELLING us they are. Which is sort of maddening and is the source of my hate in the love/hate relationship I have with Death Note.

[sub-divided.livejournal.com]

The mystery author of Death Note (Ohba Takeshi is a pen name) is soooooo misogynistic. The anime directors, for whatever reason, decided to faithfully reproduce that. It NEVER gets better -- it only gets WORSE. All of the women in this series are being used by men. None of them are independent actors. Naomi is actually the *most* competent, and see what she got for it! There's a particular "comedic" catfight later in the series that was just nauseating. (I don't know how the anime treats this, as I didn't watch that far -- but in the comic, it was awful.)

Really enjoying your commentary so far.

[rasielle.livejournal.com]

Echoing sub_divided here: it gets a lot worse. Misa at least had a redeeming personality trait: for all her lack of brains, her motivations are almost completely selfless, more about securing Light's happiness than her own. (Whether or not this is actually a good thing, though, depends on the perspective, but I can tell that she has my sympathies.) The next significant female character you'll encounter is, in my opinion, the most wretched of all. She's not as fascinating and complicated as Misa, just more pitiful.

When I think about it, despite being so few and far in between, the women in Death Note are essentially the same: lacking their own ambitions, tied down by their own affections, in a manga where the male characters are conveniently without such a weakness. There is only one female character who stands on her own (Wendy, chick with the motorcycle) and her role is so minor that I'm grasping for straws, mentioning her at all. There was also Misora Naomi with her own career, her own goals, and her own brain, but to an extent, her objectives are an extension of her husband's, and her personal motivations are rooted in his fate. Not to mention that she was also incredibly short-lived.

But I did love her. It is my most sincere wish that she had received more screentime. In fact, there's a novel spinoff (not by the mangaka) about the case Naomi worked on with L, as narrated by a character you'll encounter shortly. Naomi... is awesome. You can find its first few chapters translated here but I HIGHLY recommend you put off reading it until you finish the anime.

I have to say, I'm so glad that you started watching Death Note! It's the kind of series that makes for awesome discussion, but only after you've finished the entire thing - it's difficult to discuss without utterly spoiling everything. So far, I too am enjoying reading your commentary and dying to either confirm or correct some of your theories.

re: the question of what L might do with a Death Note
Let me just say that he's of the "end justifies the means" school of thought...

[flutingfrenzy.livejournal.com]

Re: men, this is true facts, and my least favorite thing about Death Note. I've been indoctrinating an RL friend with it, and we spent the Naomi Misora episodes having a good time discussing just how awesome in the sack that idiot Raye must have been to keep her. We ♥ Naomi. There actually is a woman in the group of police officers in the movies, and more of a female presence in general, but I can't really comment on that at length because the movies are so cheesy that I haven't managed to watch the first one all the way to the end.

I have other thoughts on this post, but they're spoilery again, so.

[flutingfrenzy.livejournal.com]

I loved Naomi so much in Another Note. She was smart, interesting, three-dimensional, and barely interacted with Raye at all. What's not to like?

will reply to the rest later, but

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Let me just say that he's of the "end justifies the means" school of thought...

So he gets one? Don't answer that, but it doesn't really matter because now I infer. I can't not infer, now! You just ruined all my OTHER fantasies where he manages to outsmart all the murderers without having any superpowers but his brain! Sure an L with a DN would be neat, but an L would wins without it would have to be even smarter. PLOT HINTING IS BAD FOR MY STOMACH.

I forgive you.

Especially because I have an inkling that the L in my head and the Kira in my head will always be smarter and more efficient than the L or Kira on the show. Just a gut feeling I'm getting.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

It seems DN is a lot like FMA when it comes to discussion... all the juicy talk requires you to have seen the same amount of episodes as the person you're talking too, no more or less.

re: men. I guess a lot of people had problems with it, based on the comments here. I wonder if the male fans of shows like this ever talk about it? I hate the masculine=norm thing that's so ever-present in the entertainment industries, from tv stars to movie leads to the protagonists in books. But especially in tv and movies. If it's got crime and cops and chess metaphors, then women don't belong. BLEGH. And the most annoying thing is that I don't even have the luxury of enjoying the opposite-- I notice if there's no men, either (maybe because it's so rare?). I am okay with it if the plot calls for a cast that would normally hold no/few women (like pro football teams competing) or no men (five women go hiking in the mountains and fight cave monsters), but in a situation like Death Note, where gender of a character isn't necessary for plot reasons and could be written pretty much the same either way, it's just annoying. It stands out more, because there's no reason for it.

I wish L had been a woman, and right from the start. Because the story would mostly be the same (L hardly seems human anyway, nobody would notice if he was actually a girl the whole time), except TOTALLY DIFFERENT in how we viewed it. I mean, if the show had done that, I would have been unable to CONTAIN my love for the sheer analysis possibilities. I'm running all 19 episodes through my head right now, imagining them if L had been female, and acted entirely the same. How would the task force people have treated him/her? How would Light react? Based on Light's reaction to Misa as Kira 2, I don't think he cares about whether his opponent is male or female, just that the person is never able to get the best of him.

Also we could also have all sorts of bizarre het backward-romance mindfuck scenarios. I don't actually see any attraction between the two characters whatsoever (Misa appears to be the only person with a sex drive on the whole show), but I am going to bet that the yaoi community is very much into L/Light as a pairing. If liked yaoi I probably would too, but in most cases I'm too picky. (Kabuto/Kakashi evil hoyay!) Then again, it'd be pretty fun too if L were female and I *still* couldn't bring myself to ship them.

On the other hand, what am I talking about? Most anime tv writers would never write L as a woman with the same characteristics as a male L. They'd make her soppy or feel compelled to imply hidden attraction, probably have her react instead of act. Which would kill the joke of having L be exactly the same either way.

::sigh::... speculating on how I'd have written an anime to give it more pizazz is fun, but unsatisfying afterward.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Word to that... I wish I could like her, but I don't.

neither he nor Light are anywhere near as smart as the series keeps TELLING us they are. Which is sort of maddening and is the source of my hate in the love/hate relationship I have with Death Note.

I know what you mean. It's all too circumstantial, every single theory. And neither of them act; they wait and react.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I will brace myself for worse, then.

One of the things I find weird about this isn't just the fact that the women who are present are sub-characters, but the fact that they're barely present at all. They're in the background, but not in the cast... it's like a strange parallel world where half the population vanishes when anyone important to the story is talking or acting. The most female presence we've seen beyond Misa (who has only been around 7 episodes as far as I've gotten) have been shunted to set decoration in Light's homelife.

There should be more of them, by sheer population math. Just to exist.

Re: will reply to the rest later, but

[rasielle.livejournal.com]

Bwahaha, don't worry, I knew what I was doing when I typed that comment! Who's to say it wasn't purposefully misleading? Anyway, last night I agonized over typing it really carefully and ultimately decided that it isn't useful. But oh ho, this doesn't tell you anything either!

*BRAINWASHES* There is no war in Ba Sing Se You are imagining these cryptic clues... they do not exiiiist...

But sorry about that! I think I shouldn't have mentioned it after all, if just to save you the panic! That's what so "double-edged sword" about misleading hints: they may spoil less than they appear to, but the person still reading/watching doesn't know that. >

Re: will reply to the rest later, but

[rasielle.livejournal.com]

Especially because I have an inkling that the L in my head and the Kira in my head will always be smarter and more efficient than the L or Kira on the show. Just a gut feeling I'm getting.

Haha, stick to that!

Anyway, did you know that there are different endings for the different DN adaptations? The manga and anime endings only differ by like, half a centimeter, and in essence they were the same. (I thought that half-centimeter was a world of difference, though, thematically speaking.) But the live-action and animanga endings are so different that they're like alternate universes. There is also a fanmade ending to substitute the manga ending floating around somewhere on the Internet... this one was really cool.

[rasielle.livejournal.com]

Dude, Naomi was one of my favorite characters period, second only to L. I loved her in what little I read of Another Note; she was so badass. In Death Note, her role is so miserably short but I did like how she was possibly the first character to drive Light to THE edge of panic. She's just cool in both. She just rocks.

I didn't like the way Ray treated her, though. Chivalry, my ass. It's still my opinion that if she had been the first agent responsible for tailing Light, things would've ended very differently.

Also! I really wish I knew what, er, fate she had carried out for herself. (how's that for a euphemism?) Light did leave the method up to her, and she still hadn't been found out 4+ months later.

Was the rest of Another Note good? Does it involve the Death Note (the object) at all?

even the women don't notice...

[rasielle.livejournal.com]

I wonder if the male fans of shows like this ever talk about it?

You'd be surprised by how few fans talk about it at all, regardless of the gender. It's the controversial questions of morality that usually spark interesting DN discussion (and the not-so-discussion), not any of the weaknesses in the series itself. To be perfectly honest, I rarely visit any boards for DN because I'm convinced that half the fandom is CRAZY (some believe in Light's cause, orz... doesn't this sound familiar.) Still, the few times I do snoop around for anything DN-related, I always stumble upon interesting DN discussion about morality or capital punishment, never once on a discussion about how few women there are.

I have a few female friends who are huge fans of Death Note but don't think of the lack of women as a failing. I have a sneaking suspicion that they think Naomi's existence was enough to fill the Respectable Women quota when it didn't come close.

Gender-bender! Write it, write it, write it! Jumping over to Hikaru no Go, though, I had a similar thought: if one of the main characters had been female, its appeal would've been off the charts. After all, both Hikaru no GO and Death Note take place in very male-dominated settings - well, at least HnG does. Death's Note setting is much more male-dominated in literature than in reality. HnG's lack of women isn't nearly as bad as DN's, either; the ONE female Go player in HnG is very cool and plays for no one but herself, and the mothers are saintly, very underappreciated by their Go-minded sons/husbands. None of them are as wretched as the woman who shows up in the second half of Death Note. But nevertheless! I found the lack of women in Hikaru no Go very disappointing, if less malicious than in DN; even if there are infinitely more men playing professional Go, both the author AND the Go expert/consultant are female.

[flutingfrenzy.livejournal.com]

I once read a fanfic where L convinces Light that he is actually a woman. He's not, but Light only discovers this during the groping that ensues.

...Um, and then they had sex.

Anyway, that fic was kind of silly, but it was also very illuminating, in that it showed that there is really no particular reason for L to be male. ("You don't know what L stands for, after all, Light-kun. Perhaps it stands for Lauren. I use the pronoun 'watashi,' and how dare you suggest that my being smart makes it less likely that I am female? What? Why don't I have breasts? Well, I'm sorry we can't all be as well-endowed as your precious Misa-san.") I wish I could find it again.

Why, in fact, the fandom IS very much into L/Light as a pairing! I think it's still the fandom OTP, if it hasn't been replaced by another one whose characters you won't meet for a little while yet. It's my OTP, too, actually. My logic? They're friends (sort of), rivals, AND enemies who spend time chained together in canon, one of them (L) is my favorite character, and the symbolism of L topping Light is relevant to my interests. Not to mention that I think they could have been awesome friends if Light hadn't been a wackjob.

[flutingfrenzy.livejournal.com]

The writing style of Another Note left something to be desired, but it was readable, anyway, and the story was excellent. The Death Note is mentioned once or twice after the introduction, but only obliquely. Oh, and shinigami are mentioned, too (though there are no actual shinigami in the book). I'll admit that a significant part of my decision to buy the book lay in the attractive binding job, but I'm not at all sorry I bought it.

I have nothing to say to the rest of your comment beyond complete agreement. I will add, though, that the advantage to leaving her death so open-ended allowed people to come up with theories about her still being alive, which is pretty cool. Not as cool as if she actually had come back, but whatever.

Re: will reply to the rest later, but

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Actually, no, this is all good to hear, because now I am doubting what I had previously resigned myself too! Just knowing that you *weren't* hinting to anything specific means I don't have to read anything specific into it.

You... might have actually UNspoiled me. Or tricked me into *thinking* you have. Very clever.... I'm questioning. I believe you just enough to not believe you, which means there's no point in inferring because I wouldn't put it past you to be deliberate about it, after all. Very clever save.

That's what so "double-edged sword" about misleading hints: they may spoil less than they appear to, but the person still reading/watching doesn't know that.

Exactly. You may not actually be spoiling anything for me in your view, but if your comment leads me to the right conclusion, then in my view that hint would have been the responsible factor in spoiling me. You can't control what my brain infers from an open-ended comment, but if I'm good at intuiting the future plot events then all I might need is a small trigger to set me on the correct path of guesswork.

I do think L will get it, either way. Mostly because that seems the most likely future for the show to keep their antagonism alive and active.

Re: will reply to the rest later, but

[rasielle.livejournal.com]

*bows* Thank you, thank you. Unfortunately, it's not as clever a save as it might appear since what actually happens is so complicated that it's... kind of difficult to spoil. Which is why I'm not flailing along with my apology, and possibly the only thing that actually saves me. *is kind of stupid, ack*

I believe you just enough to not believe you, which means there's no point in inferring because I wouldn't put it past you to be deliberate about it, after all.

Not that I was being very subtle ^^;; I wonder how you'll view all this if you watch THE episode and revisit this conversation. It'll look very odd, I bet.

[rasielle.livejournal.com]

Awww, I was hoping for some background on L's fascination with shinigami. I noticed in the series that he was particularly stunned by the possibility that they exist, so much so that he actually fell off his chair - and I wondered if he had a past experience with them or something.

... but I'm not at all sorry I bought it.

I probably wouldn't be either. Naomi in the spotlight? L's greatest collaborative case ever? All it's missing are Obata's illustrations, man. ;_;

As for the theories about Naomi, I had no idea that they were floating around out there! I think I'll look them up tonight. To be perfectly serious, I'm still convinced that the Death Note is absolute and that she was clever enough to execute its commands without getting caught, so I can't even hope for her - but yeah, that still sounds pretty awesome.

I don't think I read enough DN fanfiction. If I skip over all the generic L/Light romance, do you think I'd find anything worthwhile? DN is really chock full of possibilities.

[rasielle.livejournal.com]

I read almost no DN fanfiction, but I think I've read a fairly popular one: "Something Wicked This Way Comes" by aishuu. In it, Light is still innocent and, well, sane when he and L meet for the first time, and somehow there's a Kira going around exacting justice. (It hasn't finished yet, so I don't know who is making this possible nor how. It's a great fic.) But yeah, they do make awesome friends! Hilarious roommates! Epic detective partners! It's also shounen-ai so there's steam as well.

Rashaka, stay away! I don't remember if it's spoiler-heavy, but it might be, so don't you dare!

a little rant

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that I think they could have been awesome friends if Light hadn't been a wackjob.

Just watched episode 20 where Light asks L if L really thinks Light is capable of murder on a large scale. L said yes he'd thought that from first meeting him... I was dreading that he might lie, but he didn't.

The episode was mostly filler, unfortunately, and how Light went from L's theory of Light being controlled and then forgetting to the exact perfect truth of Light being willfully in control, forgetting his powers, and planning to get them again... how would L know all that? How would Light, from his position, guess that L knows all that when Light himself doesn't even know it? They make wild leaps of idea that have no basis in logic, reason, or even continuity! The show is treating it like L already knows about the powers of the shinigami and the notebook, when the only things that L really knows are that it takes a face & name, that it's done from a distance, and that more than one person can do it. Where he went from that information to the ability wipe one's own memories is arbitrary speculation and plainly only there because the author wants it to be true... L and Light happen to guess the exact right thing out of a million because it suits the plot, not because it makes sense. Ergh.

forgot to answer

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Was browsing some older comments and realized I never replied to this one.

To my shame, I haven't, mostly because the anime club I'm in is definitely more of a boys' club than it ought to be; while I dearly love some of the guys there, I don't think their grasp on the realities of feminism is such that I can bring stuff like this up without being laughed out of the room. Also, with a few notable exceptions, the girls there aren't the type to realize things like what you've pointed out here (can you say shallow fangirls? who generally think feminism is equivalent to misandry?)... but are the type to flip out at me for bringing things like that up. (It's "just an anime", after all, and if I think it's being sexist I "don't understand the different cultural standards".)

Ironically, "not understanding" cultural standards has never prevented anyone from criticizing them, as far as I know. :D

It sucks that you feel that way, but I understand where you're coming from. I was briefly in an anime club, but we never talked hardly at all; we just watched stuff. I would love to belong to a club that had discussions, even if they were patriarchal. I actually had that same conflict with the group I was with when I saw 300. People asked me my opinions and I said "pretty artwork, but..." and eventually when pressed I said how it's incredibly offensive and sexist but most of the boys present weren't interested in that argument.

[To my sheepishness, I don't know what "mysandry" means]