Buffy speculation
Jan. 26th, 2003 07:34 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlockan addendum to my previous post~
"ASK ME A RIDDLE," Blaine invited.
"Fuck you," Roland said. He did not raise his voice.
--Wizard and Glass, Stephen King (4th of the Dark Tower books)
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now, onto the rest
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Ok, point of thought:
About the possible foreshadowing of Spike's death this season, especially in a self-sacrificial light. (cross, BY, over-amount of torture)
Really, if they wanted that, couldn't they have sacrificed him in The Gift? I mean, hello--- drink Dawn's blood. Jump off tower into lightning inferno, and stake self mid-fall.
ProBLEM solved.
No messy resurrection issues, and self-sacrifice made and stuff.
Also, I not only don't like the Spike/death idea because I want Spike's character to be alive, but also for Buffy's sake. It would appear to even the most jaundiced anti-B/S fan by now that Spufy romance, or the implication of future Spuffy romance, is something that ME is doing this season. And after all that build up, wouldn't it be horrendously cruel to rip Buffy's heart out AGAIN?
I mean, I know that ME is into the whole tragic comedy thing, and that angst is their writer's lifeblood, but I've had the impression that they mean to show the pain of living along with the joy of it, and to show that living, and loving, is hard. But I never got the feeling that they would kill off characters or make them miserable forever-- it was more of a journey thing. With the idea that you suffer greatly, but that there is hope and love still to be found in the world and people around you. And there is a point when one can overdo trajedy so much that it becomes comedic instead of heart-felt.
I keep thinking about it, and that's why I can't imagine them doing a Spike-self-sacrifice plotline. So Buffy loves yet ANOTHER lover? Possibly the second great love of her life? In the end of the final season? It'd be... a joke. Stupid. I'd look at the screen and go, "the Hell?" It would be like saying the whole show's theme was that you can't find love or happiness--ever, that anyone who does always looses it, and that a hero is always punished for loving. To say that if your work hard for a relationship and you manage to make it real, make it finally good, that it will only be destroyed or taken away soon after.
That'd be a crappy-ass theme. And I think ME is better than that. That'd be like... well, like magic starlight stealing away your sister, because the aliens were too obvious a plot twist by now.
"ASK ME A RIDDLE," Blaine invited.
"Fuck you," Roland said. He did not raise his voice.
--Wizard and Glass, Stephen King (4th of the Dark Tower books)
-----------------------
now, onto the rest
-----------------------
Ok, point of thought:
About the possible foreshadowing of Spike's death this season, especially in a self-sacrificial light. (cross, BY, over-amount of torture)
Really, if they wanted that, couldn't they have sacrificed him in The Gift? I mean, hello--- drink Dawn's blood. Jump off tower into lightning inferno, and stake self mid-fall.
ProBLEM solved.
No messy resurrection issues, and self-sacrifice made and stuff.
Also, I not only don't like the Spike/death idea because I want Spike's character to be alive, but also for Buffy's sake. It would appear to even the most jaundiced anti-B/S fan by now that Spufy romance, or the implication of future Spuffy romance, is something that ME is doing this season. And after all that build up, wouldn't it be horrendously cruel to rip Buffy's heart out AGAIN?
I mean, I know that ME is into the whole tragic comedy thing, and that angst is their writer's lifeblood, but I've had the impression that they mean to show the pain of living along with the joy of it, and to show that living, and loving, is hard. But I never got the feeling that they would kill off characters or make them miserable forever-- it was more of a journey thing. With the idea that you suffer greatly, but that there is hope and love still to be found in the world and people around you. And there is a point when one can overdo trajedy so much that it becomes comedic instead of heart-felt.
I keep thinking about it, and that's why I can't imagine them doing a Spike-self-sacrifice plotline. So Buffy loves yet ANOTHER lover? Possibly the second great love of her life? In the end of the final season? It'd be... a joke. Stupid. I'd look at the screen and go, "the Hell?" It would be like saying the whole show's theme was that you can't find love or happiness--ever, that anyone who does always looses it, and that a hero is always punished for loving. To say that if your work hard for a relationship and you manage to make it real, make it finally good, that it will only be destroyed or taken away soon after.
That'd be a crappy-ass theme. And I think ME is better than that. That'd be like... well, like magic starlight stealing away your sister, because the aliens were too obvious a plot twist by now.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
There will be NO magic starlight
Date: 2003-01-26 10:41 pm (UTC)Also, even though ME has been pimping the "female empowerment" idea, and some fans have speculated that the series might end without a love interest, I don't agree. Buffy's emotional self was scarred by Angel, and she needs to "love, give and forgive" to heal herself. To complete the journey. If she remained emotionally disconnected and frozen, what kind of image does that send out? That female heroes cannot love? Cannot have a healthy relationship? No, I really do believe -- especially since we know 99.99% that the series ends this May -- that Buffy will have a happy ending. And so will Spike.
Regarding the fear of Sacrificial!Spike, the only aspect that scares me is all the damn Christ symbolism. Beneath You, anyone? And regardless if Joss is an atheist or not, that doesn't mean he is ignorant of how that story ended.
Then again, Mulder didn't die. Not really. ;)
Re: There will be NO magic starlight
Date: 2003-01-26 10:52 pm (UTC)Exactly. That's why it would annoy me so much.
Then again, Mulder didn't die. Not really. ;)
:grin: Nope, the kissable Mulder with his kissable lips survived the series intact... though I'd imagine kinda heartbroken at losing their son.
So let's hope kissable Spike with his kissable lips survives too.
Another way to look at it…
Date: 2003-01-27 09:25 am (UTC)You’re right about the set up and potential for spuffyness (though we fervently hope it does not come to pass), though I might argue Buffy “loves” Spike at present as she loves say Xander or Willow.
But I really, really do not think Spike deserves a happy ending yet. Let me introduce to you what my brother calls the Holst argument (after the angel character)
He was evil for two centuries, he has killed thousands. He gets a soul, helps Buffy out a bit and its all ok? I think not. Angel being are only precedent for vampires with souls, I think it has been made clear that there is a whole lot more to this redemption business than getting a soul and being a bit crazy for a little while.
Yes Spike went out and got his soul, which makes a difference, but on the grand scale of destruction and death his caused versus lives he has saved, he still owes. And as for his acts of self-sacrifice to date, they have been for the love of Buffy. Arguably these acts are not “unselfish” enough to constitute redemption. He does them because he is passionately, unspeakably in love with one woman. If that were enough to redeem, then Angel would be all-human by now, not having his own spin off series. In fact isn’t it Angel who declares that it’s “never enough”?
I accept your argument that if Buffy loses yet another lover, the show will have had a bit of a downer on romance (but then the show always has). But I don’t think that Buffy has to end the series in a relationship for they’re to be a happy ending. Good writing can portray hope for the future without needing to resort to two people strolling off into the sunset.
If Spike dies saving the world, for it will be the mark of true redemption. I will be sorry to see him go, because he is a great character. But I really don’t think it will suck, even from a Spuffy perspective. Think of the great romances of the world. How many of them (pre-Disney) end with two people being together?
Re: Another way to look at it…
Date: 2003-01-27 11:04 am (UTC)I agree with that. I'd like to see more romance, but if the show ended tomorrow, then as far as relationship goes between B&S, I'd be satisfied, because it loks to me like the implication or promise has already been set up.
Think of the great romances of the world. How many of them (pre-Disney) end with two people being together?
You're talking fictional, right? Like every book that's not Romeo and Juliet. Most Shakespeare plays, in fact.
And the thing you're thinking of here is that Spike and Buffy is some kind of fairy tale-- it's never come off as a fairy tale to me. B/A already was the tragic fairy tale. That was the Romeo/Juliet storyline. Everything in how B&S relate has more resembled the complexities and problems of an adult relationship than the "perfect love" of a the great romances you're talking about. It's more realistic--in real life people's relationship problems come from the inside, from themselves; all the problems in B/A came from the outside. Their's was the idyllic love, and that's why it was a tragedy. At least as I observe the B/S to be on screen, its not a perfect love, but it does come off as a strong love between two people who are very suited to each other.
As far as Spike getting a happy ending-- he doesn't look particularly happy to me. Nor will he, I expect, by the end of the season. But not considering romance at all, I still think a self-sacrifical death would be a cop out ending. So his suffers through changing himself, struggles as hard as he ahs to make himself a better person, and then he kicks it mere months after making a breakthrough? What kind of ending is that? If he lived he could help so many people, but if he dies, even saving the world, then getting his soul ultimately served in nothing. Because Spike was willing to die to save the world for Buffy BEFORE the soul anyway.
And as far as comparing him to Angel-- the redemption can't be the same for them anyway, because they got their souls for different reasons. And also, the whole comparing to Angel's redemptive efforts thing doesn't really apply anyway, because it took him 90+ years to do anything useful wiht his soul. And then HE did it for love of Buffy too, remember? It was all in the flashbacks of Becoming I & II.
Re: Another way to look at it…
Date: 2003-01-27 11:56 am (UTC)Tristan and Iseult
Moulin Rouge
Love Story (I mean the film/book)
Lancelot and Genieve (damnn how do you spell her name?)
And thats before breaking into classical mythology (where the lovers almost always seem to end up as stars), Celtic mythology (where your not in love UNTIL your sweet heart dies)or folktales!
"And then HE did it for love of Buffy too, remember?"
That was my point. It wasn't enough for Angel to save the world for buffy, so i really do not believe it is enough for Spike (he has to go to hell and then get his own spin off series...ok just joking, but you get my point). He has to suffer more as yet (although all credit to him for skiping out the "oh-how-horrible-it-is-to-be-a-broody-me" stage ).
I know if he lives he could be a great champion for good, but since we are most likely not having a another series of Buffy, then we do not have time for this. A self-scaraficing death is a quick, clean way to instsant redemption.
"then getting his soul ultimately served in nothing. Because Spike was willing to die to save the world for Buffy BEFORE the soul anyway."
Yes, but I want him to die saving the world for Everyone, not just Buffy. Its a less selfish death that way. I think the soul makes that possible, where chipped Spike would only save the world for Buffy, souled spike will do it because it is the right thing to do.
Besides the fustration felt by coming so far and then lossing it all, well thats what great tradgy is all about! (I am a lover of tradgy. I guess it is a side effect of being unfairly branded a clincial Depressive)). Spikes sacrafice means more if he has made the "breakthrough", because otherwise he is not really throwing that much a way! He has to give up a chance to be happy with Buffy for a scarfical death to mean something (And without a soul, they didn't really have much hope did they? Well i didn't think so but I reckon i could be presuaded otherwise).
I don't see Buffy and Spike in terms of a fairey tale, but I do see the whole show in terms of a mythic cycle. I don't think that killing Spike detracts from what he and Buffy have now, have had or even what they might have togther (errgh I can't believe I wrote that). It is just a way to tie up what will otherwise become a loss end. And I think we can do a fitting, non-fairey tale, tragic lovestory ending if needed.
Incidently, I don't think you have to worry, because I think Spike is going to make it through the series, one way or another. No real reason, just a feeling I get.
Oh and on another note, I keep thinking. All those prophecies about Angel becoming human etc. well I guess since Spike also has a soul, they might be refering to him, not the alll-consuming-broody-one. Maybe Spike will become Human at the end of the series! (errm..maybe not)
Re: Another way to look at it…
Date: 2003-01-27 04:35 pm (UTC)Now there's a question that's been on the tongues of nearly every BtVS fasn who also watches AtS. You can even find fanfics about it.