Doctor Who - 4x08 & 4x09
Jun. 22nd, 2008 11:00 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlock4x08 & 4x09
Interesting. Hm... I like this episode a lot. I like how they're doing it, and I like that the story is still going into a second episode. I like that it's in a library (whee!) and I like all the meta that's happening, particularly with Little MainFrame Girl and now with Donna too.
River Song: At first I thought this was a fake name, but now I don't think so. I suppose it really is her character name. And if she's the Doctor's wife or lover, then "river" and "song" thematically make a lot of sense. River=movement & change, and "song" has been associated with the Doctor before, in the last four seasons. Most recently in the song of the Ood.
I'm going to assume that she told the Doctor his real name. That's what the romantic in me says.
This diary thing is plucked straight out of The Time-Traveller's Wife. In the book, that was the way by which Claire and Henry kept track of their jump-skip time travel relationship and eventual marriage. I can't believe it took until the beginning of the second episode to remember that; I should have thought of it immediately.
One thing that's kept in my mind is that River seems to be stressing how young the Doctor is... implying that he's possibly centuries older when he meets her, possibly even twice his current age or more. That makes me doubt she'll be a companion for Ten, even in a later season. Although... I suppose they could jump-age the Doctor and have him still be Ten. Obviously she recognized his face. And if she'd met him with a different face she wouldn't expect him to remember her because she'd automatically know she was too early.
::unveiling:: Ick. I have a thing about facial distortions on screen. Eeeww. That was the worst thing about The Ring: the facial distortions in the photos.
I'm seriously feeling for Donna here. Tate is a good actress.
"I'm the Doctor and you're in the biggest library in the universe! Look me up." Oooohhh! Vanity google! I bet Ten has done that.
I like the romantic symmetry of this: that his first meeting is her last. I like this whole story concept-- so, so much better than "The Girl In the Fireplace" which was essentially the same thing, a one-episode self-contained love story. That episode was terrible, but these two episodes have been really cool. However, I wish we could go ONE season without the extra romantic element. I had hoped that with Donna the fourth season would completely free of romantic angst until the end when Rose shows up.
This is also putting me to mind of one of my favorite fanfics, "A Thousand Languages" by MadLori, which has a similar premise but with Rose as the Doctor's wife over time and space. Except that here it seems River lived separately and the Doctor came and went in her timeline, whereas in "A Thousand Languages" Rose stayed by the Doctor in a continuous timeline, though she did meet other versions of him as well including his final incarnation.
"River, you know my name." Hah! So obvious. "There's only one time I could" [tell his name]. Now, THAT makes me wonder. My imagination says he's not talking about love or sex or marriage here... he's talking about something to do with life and regeneration and Time Lordy stuff. Some secret Time Lordy thing for which a name is necessary, though the implication would be that the deepest intimate trust is required as well. Which makes me think that River here is the Claire to the Doctor's Henry, going by The Time Traveler's Wife. Which, I'm surprised that isn't the name of this episode, or something.
ETA:![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
donna_c_punk suggested River could be a timelord and that might be why the Doctor told her his name. I would like that... it being something timelordy and not romantic. It'd be more creative.
Ohhhh, poor Donna.
I really like the Tennant's acting this episode. He does intense very well.
I'm STILL not sure what hooking up a normal human brain to the machine is supposed to do. It's already got 4000 brains. But hey, the science doesn't have to matter for this show. As long as you don't think too hard and take it at face value.
"What does that say about me."
"Everything." "Uh, did I say everything? Nothing. Meant to say nothing." HAHA.
Oh, man, he saw her at the end! That just makes me so sad for Donna. Bummer that... I can't feel too sad for the Doctor's love love because Donna's is making me so. much. sadder.
Yes, go back! Don't give up! Never give in! That's my Doctor.
So... her "soul" data impression lives on in the library... aka this is one more time when the woman he loves is trapped in a separate "universe". Hmmm. I wonder if that was an intentional parallel or not.
I like the way he stood and snapped his fingers, and the sense of growth and change and opportunity there. Yes, the Doctor can still learn and grow and change. Part of my brain, however, says that maybe the Doctor could always do that, he only had to think it was possible. Because if he has a mental connection to the ship, that explains it. So he mentally reroutes something somewhere, and TA DA! Instant new command correlation between snapping fingers and the TARDIS opening her doors.
...although, snapping your fingers at things is only going to make the God complex worse.
Overall, I liked it. Shipping wise (and as a true blue Doctor/Rose shipper, I feel the need for an Obligatory Opinion Statement), I liked the premise here and I definitely believe that someone as long-lived as The Doctor must have loved before and will love again. Mostly it made me sad, to think that Rose never got to have that much time with the Doctor, never got that love story with him. She never got the chance to say goodbye until it was too late and they had already been separated, and she never got to have a relationship with him that spanned years and timelines. Likewise, the Doctor never got to have that with Rose, either. Which is sad. I like to think that over time they could have shared so much more--with River, in fact, we can see what a relationship like that would have been like, over time and distance.
For River, I'm sad that she died relatively young and, apparently, loving the Doctor is toxic even if he lets you completely into the world. Clearly every time he loves someone he loses them... but then, what's changed about that? The Doctor himself said in season 3 that everyone he's close to eventually dies, and its part of the package. River and the Doctor apparently had a happy and long relationship, which apparently made him better as a person. That's a good thing.
Like I said, though, I thought we were over the romantic angle of the show. Please, PLEASE can that be over? And that's what frightens me about Rose coming back later: the love story ended, it was done, and I cried, and OKAY LET'S MOVE ON PLEASE. And here the Doctor's like "I just want a friend! Please, PLEASE will someone just be my friend instead of expecting a deep emotional commitment?" And then eight episodes later he meets and loses ANOTHER true love? ::headdesk:: At this point, I want him to just have a mate too. Give the poor sod a break, writers. Cripes. Usually I dig the romantic drama but we're on our fourth season now and we've done epic tragic love AND we've done unrequited awkward love AND now we've done epic not-tragic love, and we're about to revisit the first one, so please...
Please... just let him have a friend!
We need a guy on board the Tardis. Seriously. Change of pace, or something. Doctor needs a bromance.
ETA: About River possibly coming back, which is a question we should be asking given the set-up of her character...
I don't want her back. I can buy into the future love thing just fine, but to have her come back with the same actress means it'd have to be with Ten, and part of my liking the character is the assumption that she's from FAR, FAR into the future with a much older Doctor. Her Doctor, not our Doctor. She's a stranger, so the Doctor that loves her would be a stranger too.
Which means unless they recast her and she showed up with Twelve or Thirteen or something like eight seasons from now, we'd never see her.
If they bring her back... it's messy! It messes up the symmetry of this episode, of their meeting and her sacrifice. For a character like this to work for me (as an audience member) she has to be a distant potential future, always something speculated about but never seen. Having to watch her and the Doctor have a blah blah romance would take away from the mystery of it. This kind of thing is better imagined than actually seen played out, because what we see will always be less than what our imagination comes up with.
ETA 2: Also, I agree about being annoyed when guest stars overtake the regular companions. That *is* annoying, and it did happen here. Luckily for this episode I felt so sad for Donna that her emotional trial was much worse, in my mind, than the Doctor's. It sucks that she didn't get to do anything interesting all episode, but it's good that the actress really worked the material she was given.
::watching the promo for 3x10:: Sometimes I wish it weren't so obvious that Doctor Who is a series of white room scenarios one after another after another.
Interesting. Hm... I like this episode a lot. I like how they're doing it, and I like that the story is still going into a second episode. I like that it's in a library (whee!) and I like all the meta that's happening, particularly with Little MainFrame Girl and now with Donna too.
River Song: At first I thought this was a fake name, but now I don't think so. I suppose it really is her character name. And if she's the Doctor's wife or lover, then "river" and "song" thematically make a lot of sense. River=movement & change, and "song" has been associated with the Doctor before, in the last four seasons. Most recently in the song of the Ood.
I'm going to assume that she told the Doctor his real name. That's what the romantic in me says.
This diary thing is plucked straight out of The Time-Traveller's Wife. In the book, that was the way by which Claire and Henry kept track of their jump-skip time travel relationship and eventual marriage. I can't believe it took until the beginning of the second episode to remember that; I should have thought of it immediately.
One thing that's kept in my mind is that River seems to be stressing how young the Doctor is... implying that he's possibly centuries older when he meets her, possibly even twice his current age or more. That makes me doubt she'll be a companion for Ten, even in a later season. Although... I suppose they could jump-age the Doctor and have him still be Ten. Obviously she recognized his face. And if she'd met him with a different face she wouldn't expect him to remember her because she'd automatically know she was too early.
::unveiling:: Ick. I have a thing about facial distortions on screen. Eeeww. That was the worst thing about The Ring: the facial distortions in the photos.
I'm seriously feeling for Donna here. Tate is a good actress.
"I'm the Doctor and you're in the biggest library in the universe! Look me up." Oooohhh! Vanity google! I bet Ten has done that.
I like the romantic symmetry of this: that his first meeting is her last. I like this whole story concept-- so, so much better than "The Girl In the Fireplace" which was essentially the same thing, a one-episode self-contained love story. That episode was terrible, but these two episodes have been really cool. However, I wish we could go ONE season without the extra romantic element. I had hoped that with Donna the fourth season would completely free of romantic angst until the end when Rose shows up.
This is also putting me to mind of one of my favorite fanfics, "A Thousand Languages" by MadLori, which has a similar premise but with Rose as the Doctor's wife over time and space. Except that here it seems River lived separately and the Doctor came and went in her timeline, whereas in "A Thousand Languages" Rose stayed by the Doctor in a continuous timeline, though she did meet other versions of him as well including his final incarnation.
"River, you know my name." Hah! So obvious. "There's only one time I could" [tell his name]. Now, THAT makes me wonder. My imagination says he's not talking about love or sex or marriage here... he's talking about something to do with life and regeneration and Time Lordy stuff. Some secret Time Lordy thing for which a name is necessary, though the implication would be that the deepest intimate trust is required as well. Which makes me think that River here is the Claire to the Doctor's Henry, going by The Time Traveler's Wife. Which, I'm surprised that isn't the name of this episode, or something.
ETA:
donna_c_punk suggested River could be a timelord and that might be why the Doctor told her his name. I would like that... it being something timelordy and not romantic. It'd be more creative.Ohhhh, poor Donna.
I really like the Tennant's acting this episode. He does intense very well.
I'm STILL not sure what hooking up a normal human brain to the machine is supposed to do. It's already got 4000 brains. But hey, the science doesn't have to matter for this show. As long as you don't think too hard and take it at face value.
"What does that say about me."
"Everything." "Uh, did I say everything? Nothing. Meant to say nothing." HAHA.
Oh, man, he saw her at the end! That just makes me so sad for Donna. Bummer that... I can't feel too sad for the Doctor's love love because Donna's is making me so. much. sadder.
Yes, go back! Don't give up! Never give in! That's my Doctor.
So... her "soul" data impression lives on in the library... aka this is one more time when the woman he loves is trapped in a separate "universe". Hmmm. I wonder if that was an intentional parallel or not.
I like the way he stood and snapped his fingers, and the sense of growth and change and opportunity there. Yes, the Doctor can still learn and grow and change. Part of my brain, however, says that maybe the Doctor could always do that, he only had to think it was possible. Because if he has a mental connection to the ship, that explains it. So he mentally reroutes something somewhere, and TA DA! Instant new command correlation between snapping fingers and the TARDIS opening her doors.
...although, snapping your fingers at things is only going to make the God complex worse.
Overall, I liked it. Shipping wise (and as a true blue Doctor/Rose shipper, I feel the need for an Obligatory Opinion Statement), I liked the premise here and I definitely believe that someone as long-lived as The Doctor must have loved before and will love again. Mostly it made me sad, to think that Rose never got to have that much time with the Doctor, never got that love story with him. She never got the chance to say goodbye until it was too late and they had already been separated, and she never got to have a relationship with him that spanned years and timelines. Likewise, the Doctor never got to have that with Rose, either. Which is sad. I like to think that over time they could have shared so much more--with River, in fact, we can see what a relationship like that would have been like, over time and distance.
For River, I'm sad that she died relatively young and, apparently, loving the Doctor is toxic even if he lets you completely into the world. Clearly every time he loves someone he loses them... but then, what's changed about that? The Doctor himself said in season 3 that everyone he's close to eventually dies, and its part of the package. River and the Doctor apparently had a happy and long relationship, which apparently made him better as a person. That's a good thing.
Like I said, though, I thought we were over the romantic angle of the show. Please, PLEASE can that be over? And that's what frightens me about Rose coming back later: the love story ended, it was done, and I cried, and OKAY LET'S MOVE ON PLEASE. And here the Doctor's like "I just want a friend! Please, PLEASE will someone just be my friend instead of expecting a deep emotional commitment?" And then eight episodes later he meets and loses ANOTHER true love? ::headdesk:: At this point, I want him to just have a mate too. Give the poor sod a break, writers. Cripes. Usually I dig the romantic drama but we're on our fourth season now and we've done epic tragic love AND we've done unrequited awkward love AND now we've done epic not-tragic love, and we're about to revisit the first one, so please...
Please... just let him have a friend!
We need a guy on board the Tardis. Seriously. Change of pace, or something. Doctor needs a bromance.
ETA: About River possibly coming back, which is a question we should be asking given the set-up of her character...
I don't want her back. I can buy into the future love thing just fine, but to have her come back with the same actress means it'd have to be with Ten, and part of my liking the character is the assumption that she's from FAR, FAR into the future with a much older Doctor. Her Doctor, not our Doctor. She's a stranger, so the Doctor that loves her would be a stranger too.
Which means unless they recast her and she showed up with Twelve or Thirteen or something like eight seasons from now, we'd never see her.
If they bring her back... it's messy! It messes up the symmetry of this episode, of their meeting and her sacrifice. For a character like this to work for me (as an audience member) she has to be a distant potential future, always something speculated about but never seen. Having to watch her and the Doctor have a blah blah romance would take away from the mystery of it. This kind of thing is better imagined than actually seen played out, because what we see will always be less than what our imagination comes up with.
ETA 2: Also, I agree about being annoyed when guest stars overtake the regular companions. That *is* annoying, and it did happen here. Luckily for this episode I felt so sad for Donna that her emotional trial was much worse, in my mind, than the Doctor's. It sucks that she didn't get to do anything interesting all episode, but it's good that the actress really worked the material she was given.
::watching the promo for 3x10:: Sometimes I wish it weren't so obvious that Doctor Who is a series of white room scenarios one after another after another.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-02 06:02 am (UTC)Please... just let him have a friend!
I've totally latched on to this because you are absolutely right. Seeing Ten with Donna has made me finally like the guy, and I think it's because he's much happier with a buddy, a pal, an amigo to joke and shout with and hug when necessary; romance for him is more of a further destabilizing, draining thing, instead of a support.
More ami not amore!
no subject
Date: 2008-07-02 07:37 am (UTC)This kind of one-shot romantic character feels almost exploitive to me--I can't quite say how. Exploitive of the audience's emotions? Of the plot weaknesses in the "time lord" mythology? I dunno. But this kind of thing (and the girl in the fireplace which was EXACTLY THE SAME in plot terms, except much worse), feels like serious overkill after Rose and Martha. Overkill. If there had been no Rose (and Martha had been less awkward because the shadow of Rose wasn't there), then I'd be much more receptive to this idea, because it'd be something atypical. A hint of possible epic romance! But given that we had two seasons plus of epic romance already, it's like cheap theatrics. I'd rather have seen this subplot in season 5 or 6, after we've had some distance from Rose. More distance, anyway, since it's pretty apparent from off-hand comments this season and from conversations with Donna that the Doctor still isn't over Rose. He's resigned to it, but he's still sore. To dangle another true love in front of him then kill her too just feels...tiring. Like kicking someone who's down.
re: "romance for him is more of a further destabilizing, draining thing, instead of a support"
At this point, definitely. The thing I liked about Rose when she was in the first two seasons is that she was a support-- it was better with two, and it didn't drain him. Of course, seeing her at the end of this season WILL be draining. I just want him to have a break, and give the audience a break too.
I still haven't seen this weekend's episode, I'm only up to 4x11.