Doctor Who 4x13 - discussion
Jul. 6th, 2008 04:25 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlock WE GOT A KISS! I was prepared to hate RTD if he didn't give us a fucking kiss, and he did. Bit of tricky circumstances, though.
I'm not sure how I feel about the beach scene. I understand why they did it and I even somewhat agree with all the things they addressed, but I'm not sure if it couldn't have been better. It felt rushed, and bittersweet.
But then again, would drawing it out have been any better, story wise? Would anything have changed? A potential for happiness overshadowed by the harsh unfairness of the situation. Somebody has to lose, and again that someone is the Doctor. And Rose too, in a way. She gained something with the human Doctor (this was a parallel to 'mortgage' conversation in "The Satan Pit", wasn't it? RTD does like his continuity tie-ins), but she lost something too-- not just the man, but the way of life. Travelling the TARDIS, and all. Though I suppose Torchwood can build a spaceship if it wants, if they can manage a time travel machine and a dimensional cannon.
I feel like my desire to let go and be happy for Rose & 10.5 is being shot down by my sadness for Ten.
While the scene was uncomfortable in many ways, awkward and painful for all three of them, I'm not actually sure there would have been a better way to write it. Everything they did felt in-character. Ten was very much himself, in both versions (selfish and generous at the same time), and Rose was given a rather rotten choice to make. But she did choose, and frankly, after travelling across the multiverse and waiting two or three years for a man, I'd also pick the man who was willing to say he loved me. She's not the same woman she used to be. And BrownDoctor knew she'd choose the one who said it, which is why he didn't. He was Bad Cop, and making the decision for her by manipulating events. Which he did as Nine (when he sent her back) and did as Ten (when he sent her away a second time to save her) and then did again to Donna. He's always been a big control-freak.
What's interesting about this in the larger sense is that twice now the Doctor has sent Rose away (and the third time he lost her), across time and space, and both times she came back, and it turns out the only way to keep her from chasing him down again was to stay. To put himself in two places at once. As a story device, this is nicely in keeping with both their characters: we know that Rose doesn't and wouldn't give up, wouldn't hesitate to tear down the walls between universes to get him back. And we know that he wants to be with her, and he wants to give her that happiness, and that he can, has, and will arrange events so that she's safe and happy, without consulting her first. Usually his arrangements fail because Rose's determination is stronger and she hunts him down; by leaving himself with her, he doesn't have to doubt that she's out their somewhere, happy and human.
I'm pretty sure that Blue Doctor had less dialogue because of the difficulty and trouble of putting them in the same frame, but I also think that Blue Doctor guessed immediately what the plan was back in the TARDIS, did a mental Pro/Con list, and realized he was getting a good deal: he gets the love, the life, the humanity he's so fond of. He gets Rose Tyler. The Doctor's generous, but he's selfish too. And he knows himself pretty well.
I suppose plenty of fans will say this is a plot device designed purely to satisfy fans who want a happy ending while still leaving the Doctor on his own, but like I said above, it really is one of the few ways to arrange things that works with Rose's and the Doctor's respective cahracters. The writers wrote themselves into a hole by making the Doctor fall in Epic True Love, and since they didn't want to kill her off, this was the best way to do justice to the will and determination of both characters to be together, since even RTD and the actors have said in Confidential interviews that Rose would. never. stop. trying to get to him.
I'm happy for Rose, of course, and I think that she will be happy with Blue Doctor. Even knowing there's another him out there. She's a little older now, and a little wiser. She's lived without him so she's not dependent anymore. She went to get him, and she has him. She knows the price, but she'll love the Doctor in front of her, just as she loved Ten after losing Nine. Rose loves the Doctor, in any form. And the Doctor, in every form, loves Rose.
I'm happy for the Doctor because he gets to have a life with her, but I'm sad for the him that doesn't. Doubly sad because he's losing Donna too, and most of the internets (myself too probably) will talk about the Bad Wolf Bay scene more than the loss of Donna, which I think is equally devastating. At least Ten got to see Rose again, and he got to convey his feelings to her in the end, and she isn't "lost" anymore. He has some closure there that he didn't have a season ago. With Donna, he doesn't. Fresh wounds. Who's going to heal him now?
Will he heal himself? He says he's "Okay" but I really think that means "I'll be okay eventually, just give me some time." No matter how it goes, I hope that with the specials or season 5 or whatever, with the management change that's going to happen, that we won't have another epic love story for a while. I'm satisfied with this one. I'd like the Doctor to have a friend, please. A platonic friend who lasts more than a season. Or two! One could be a guy, for variety.
EDIT1: I know some people are pissed about this, or will be when they watch it. The clone thing. But it doesn't piss me off, and I think it's because I watched Farscape, so, ladies and gentlemen, I'VE BEEN THERE. As a fan, I've seen this before. And if I could adjust my brain to the idea that there were two John Chrictons out there with the same soul and memories and love for Aeryn, then I can adjust to the idea that a Doctor who regenerated from literally the same flesh as the other Doctor (the flesh that resulted from Nine's regeneration) has the same memories, thoughts, and feelings. Once you've had to work your brain around this idea for one television OTP, it's easier to work your brain around it again for a different OTP. I just feel shitty for LonesomeTen. And I feel for the shippers out there who aren't going to take this well.
But Rose? Rose will love the Doctor in front of her. She loved Ten after losing Nine, and she'll love Blue after losing Brown. She's crossed this bridge before.
I'm not sure how I feel about the beach scene. I understand why they did it and I even somewhat agree with all the things they addressed, but I'm not sure if it couldn't have been better. It felt rushed, and bittersweet.
But then again, would drawing it out have been any better, story wise? Would anything have changed? A potential for happiness overshadowed by the harsh unfairness of the situation. Somebody has to lose, and again that someone is the Doctor. And Rose too, in a way. She gained something with the human Doctor (this was a parallel to 'mortgage' conversation in "The Satan Pit", wasn't it? RTD does like his continuity tie-ins), but she lost something too-- not just the man, but the way of life. Travelling the TARDIS, and all. Though I suppose Torchwood can build a spaceship if it wants, if they can manage a time travel machine and a dimensional cannon.
I feel like my desire to let go and be happy for Rose & 10.5 is being shot down by my sadness for Ten.
While the scene was uncomfortable in many ways, awkward and painful for all three of them, I'm not actually sure there would have been a better way to write it. Everything they did felt in-character. Ten was very much himself, in both versions (selfish and generous at the same time), and Rose was given a rather rotten choice to make. But she did choose, and frankly, after travelling across the multiverse and waiting two or three years for a man, I'd also pick the man who was willing to say he loved me. She's not the same woman she used to be. And BrownDoctor knew she'd choose the one who said it, which is why he didn't. He was Bad Cop, and making the decision for her by manipulating events. Which he did as Nine (when he sent her back) and did as Ten (when he sent her away a second time to save her) and then did again to Donna. He's always been a big control-freak.
What's interesting about this in the larger sense is that twice now the Doctor has sent Rose away (and the third time he lost her), across time and space, and both times she came back, and it turns out the only way to keep her from chasing him down again was to stay. To put himself in two places at once. As a story device, this is nicely in keeping with both their characters: we know that Rose doesn't and wouldn't give up, wouldn't hesitate to tear down the walls between universes to get him back. And we know that he wants to be with her, and he wants to give her that happiness, and that he can, has, and will arrange events so that she's safe and happy, without consulting her first. Usually his arrangements fail because Rose's determination is stronger and she hunts him down; by leaving himself with her, he doesn't have to doubt that she's out their somewhere, happy and human.
I'm pretty sure that Blue Doctor had less dialogue because of the difficulty and trouble of putting them in the same frame, but I also think that Blue Doctor guessed immediately what the plan was back in the TARDIS, did a mental Pro/Con list, and realized he was getting a good deal: he gets the love, the life, the humanity he's so fond of. He gets Rose Tyler. The Doctor's generous, but he's selfish too. And he knows himself pretty well.
I suppose plenty of fans will say this is a plot device designed purely to satisfy fans who want a happy ending while still leaving the Doctor on his own, but like I said above, it really is one of the few ways to arrange things that works with Rose's and the Doctor's respective cahracters. The writers wrote themselves into a hole by making the Doctor fall in Epic True Love, and since they didn't want to kill her off, this was the best way to do justice to the will and determination of both characters to be together, since even RTD and the actors have said in Confidential interviews that Rose would. never. stop. trying to get to him.
I'm happy for Rose, of course, and I think that she will be happy with Blue Doctor. Even knowing there's another him out there. She's a little older now, and a little wiser. She's lived without him so she's not dependent anymore. She went to get him, and she has him. She knows the price, but she'll love the Doctor in front of her, just as she loved Ten after losing Nine. Rose loves the Doctor, in any form. And the Doctor, in every form, loves Rose.
I'm happy for the Doctor because he gets to have a life with her, but I'm sad for the him that doesn't. Doubly sad because he's losing Donna too, and most of the internets (myself too probably) will talk about the Bad Wolf Bay scene more than the loss of Donna, which I think is equally devastating. At least Ten got to see Rose again, and he got to convey his feelings to her in the end, and she isn't "lost" anymore. He has some closure there that he didn't have a season ago. With Donna, he doesn't. Fresh wounds. Who's going to heal him now?
Will he heal himself? He says he's "Okay" but I really think that means "I'll be okay eventually, just give me some time." No matter how it goes, I hope that with the specials or season 5 or whatever, with the management change that's going to happen, that we won't have another epic love story for a while. I'm satisfied with this one. I'd like the Doctor to have a friend, please. A platonic friend who lasts more than a season. Or two! One could be a guy, for variety.
EDIT1: I know some people are pissed about this, or will be when they watch it. The clone thing. But it doesn't piss me off, and I think it's because I watched Farscape, so, ladies and gentlemen, I'VE BEEN THERE. As a fan, I've seen this before. And if I could adjust my brain to the idea that there were two John Chrictons out there with the same soul and memories and love for Aeryn, then I can adjust to the idea that a Doctor who regenerated from literally the same flesh as the other Doctor (the flesh that resulted from Nine's regeneration) has the same memories, thoughts, and feelings. Once you've had to work your brain around this idea for one television OTP, it's easier to work your brain around it again for a different OTP. I just feel shitty for LonesomeTen. And I feel for the shippers out there who aren't going to take this well.
But Rose? Rose will love the Doctor in front of her. She loved Ten after losing Nine, and she'll love Blue after losing Brown. She's crossed this bridge before.
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no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 05:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 05:30 pm (UTC)One thing that I've noticed a lot of the people who are complaining are complaining about is that Blue Doctor is some kind of half clone knock-off, substandard. And yeah, I can see that, but that's not it struck me when I watched. Because Blue and Brown both said and repeated "He is the Doctor"/"I am the Doctor" so many times, when I first watched the episode I saw Blue as a regeneration, not a clone. I think this is a fundamental difference that some people are having, and it comes down to the language of it.
Because Blue Doctor didn't come from cloning or a duplication machine or anything like that-- he was *regenerated* into existence, the same as Ten or Nine or Eight or Four were. Same base-code, with a bit of Donna filler. But instead of the base code changing his hair color and facial structure and teeth, it changed his hearts and his insides. This is his new body.
Some people find it creepy, but honestly, I don't. That's really one of the things that bothered me LEAST about this episode. That I've seen, done, accepted before. Most of my issues were and still are having to do with freedom of choice, with Ten's bizarre guilt trip on himself, and with the general sense of masochistic torture in setting up a situation where he knows Rose will choose the other him, and having to watch them kiss. I want to feel sorry for him, but this was a tag-team effort by both Tens. It could have happened with a lot less crying and accusing silences. That's what I'm having issues with. And the Doctor being alone again, totally.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 05:40 pm (UTC)It is bittersweet. I think it's a better, more powerful ending because of it. Rose and blue!suit Doctor will have their own struggles to overcome, absolutely, but we know they're up to the challenge. And meanwhile our Doctor is heartbroken, which hurts beyond words.
Most of my issues were and still are having to do with freedom of choice, with Ten's bizarre guilt trip on himself, and with the general sense of masochistic torture in setting up a situation where he knows Rose will choose the other him, and having to watch them kiss.
Yes, our Doctor was being a masochistic self-sacrificing idiot. But I understand why, because of the damage he has, the belief that he's a monster and that he turns his friends into weapons. He tries to spare everyone else and take all the pain onto himself, even when it means making Rose's choice for her. Which I so wish he wouldn't do, but that's why it's bittersweet. Part of it is happy and part of it is devastating.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-06 05:51 pm (UTC)Yeah. Both of him did it. This was one of the most transparent Good Cop / Bad Cop routines I've seen. They both saw the solution, and Ten2 sat back and watched while Ten gave the difficult speech.
I'm just relieved that Rose made him turn around, come back, and give her an answer before leaving. She tried to make a choice in the limited scope of the situation that Ten[s] provided her.
But I understand why, because of the damage he has, the belief that he's a monster and that he turns his friends into weapons.
I understand too, but I was so hopeful this season (with Donna Happy Fun Times) that we'd move past this miserableness. I'm a little weary of it. I want him to have a friend and just enjoy the travel again. I am really pissed that he found that in Donna and lost her too.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-07 06:19 am (UTC)