all around fun.
Feb. 6th, 2003 08:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlockI didn't cheat on this quiz. If I had, I'd have gotten Orlando Bloom. But Collin Farrell's a sexy bitch, so I don't mind so much. ;)
Colin Farrell
Which Male Are You Destined To End Up With?
brought to you by Quizilla
***
Read some absolutely splendid things in friends LJs today.
***
From![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
chase820:
–I think Connor was right in his insights about Angel/Angelus. Discussed this with Mustang Sally last week, and we concluded that Angel is just a part the souled Angelus plays, a psychological construction he created so he could distance himself from the horrible things he'd done. Souled Spike never tries to make this argument, and really, the Jekyll/Hyde thing makes no sense, anyway. A soul gives you free will, remorse, yadda yadda yadda. It doesn't make you someone else. The fact that souled Spike is willing to face up to this, and Angel never has, makes me believe that for all his silliness this season, Spike is the psychologically stronger of the two.
So nicely put and well-spoken. I wonder if the difference in how Angel and Spike have handled their self-image after soul has anything to do with how they reacted to the FE's influence?
When it went after Angel, he gave in, and was saved by Buffy and miracle snow. So, the FE won. When it went after Spike, he killed people. So it won with him too. But it had to work on Spike for weeks in the basement-- and it got him when the hard part of insanity was mostly done; Spike had already been well-worked over by Buffy herself and the pain of his soul. Does this speak better of Spike than Angel? Does it make a difference that he was under direct mind control via the song, whereas Angel was just very depressed and upset by visions?
But even if it took longer for Spike-- does it matter if in the end Spike did what it wanted too? In the end Spike was able to resist the evil's influence; would Angel have been able to do the same if his own torture had been prolonged? Or was Spike's only prolonged because he resisted longer, and Angel wanted to walk into the sun after just one episode? Spike's main mental tool of resistance was the knowledge that Buffy had faith in him, but Angel has always had her faith, love, and forgiveness. Is the difference between Spike and Angel that Angel doesn't associate his self worth by the people who love him and whom he loves, the way Spike does?
Is Spike's willingness to reconcile the demon and the soul in him as being the same person with different motivations give him some strength to resist the FE that Angel didn't have? Sort of a "there's nothing you can remind me of that I don't already know" thing?
And since you brought it up:
Angelus, take me, you mysterious black-clad hunk of a night thing.
***
Fromshrift's LJ entry:
My imaginary flip-fan now has a bored 'I'm a man-hating femi-nazi' scrawled across it in blood.
***
Fromvalereix's journal:
When I was younger, I thought gun control was completely unnecessary. Gun control advocates would cite all these examples of children shooting themselves while playing with their parents' guns. I would think, "If you do something like that, it's not about gun control; you're just stupid." Then one day I accidentally maced myself. I've been a liberal ever since.
***
Fromanniesj's 'Soulless' comments:
(Angelus on American Idol)
SIMON: That was ghastly. Utterly ghastly. And that suit is horrible. Angelus?
ANGELUS: I'm going to eviscerate you with a spork. Because hey. Sporks are fun.
SIMON: Marry me, Angelus.
::mad giggling:: God I still think that's so funny.
***
Fromlordshiva:
If Angel/Angelus are modeled after Jeckyl and Hyde, what is the character of Spike modeled after? His evil/good demarcation is not as pronounced from what we've seen. Angelus and Angel by their own admission never loved. Spike on the other hand was quite swept away by love human or not, chipped or not, evil or not.
Damn good question. I can't help but think we're supposed to get something out of the fact that Spike doesn't have the double-personality thing post-soul that Angel does, but I don't know what that message is yet. But I think I talked about this earlier in this post, didn't I?
***
Fromestepheia:
A political joke:
President George Bush is visiting an elementary school and he visits one of the classes. They are in the middle of a discussion related to words and their meanings. The teacher asks the President if he would like to lead the class in the discussion of the word, tragedy. So the illustrious leader asks the class for an example of a tragedy. One little boy stands up and offers, "If my best friend, who lives
next door, is playing in the street and a car comes along and runs him
over, that would be a tragedy."
"No," says Bush, "that would be an ACCIDENT."
A little girl raises her hand: "If a school bus carrying 50 children drove off a cliff, killing everyone involved, that would be a tragedy."
"I´m afraid not," explains Mr. President. "That´s what we would call a GREAT LOSS." The room goes silent. No other children volunteer. President Bush searches the room. "Isn´t there someone here who can give me an example of a tragedy?"
Finally, way in the back of the room, a small boy raises his hand. In a quiet voice he says, "If Air Force One, carrying Mr. & Mrs. Bush, were struck by a missile and blown up to smithereens, by a terrorist like Osama bin Laden, that would be a tragedy."
"Fantastic," exclaims Bush, "that´s right. And can you tell me WHY that would be a TRAGEDY?"
"Well," says the boy, "because it wouldn´t be an accident, and it certainly wouldn´t be a great loss."
Colin Farrell
Which Male Are You Destined To End Up With?
brought to you by Quizilla
***
Read some absolutely splendid things in friends LJs today.
***
From
chase820:–I think Connor was right in his insights about Angel/Angelus. Discussed this with Mustang Sally last week, and we concluded that Angel is just a part the souled Angelus plays, a psychological construction he created so he could distance himself from the horrible things he'd done. Souled Spike never tries to make this argument, and really, the Jekyll/Hyde thing makes no sense, anyway. A soul gives you free will, remorse, yadda yadda yadda. It doesn't make you someone else. The fact that souled Spike is willing to face up to this, and Angel never has, makes me believe that for all his silliness this season, Spike is the psychologically stronger of the two.
So nicely put and well-spoken. I wonder if the difference in how Angel and Spike have handled their self-image after soul has anything to do with how they reacted to the FE's influence?
When it went after Angel, he gave in, and was saved by Buffy and miracle snow. So, the FE won. When it went after Spike, he killed people. So it won with him too. But it had to work on Spike for weeks in the basement-- and it got him when the hard part of insanity was mostly done; Spike had already been well-worked over by Buffy herself and the pain of his soul. Does this speak better of Spike than Angel? Does it make a difference that he was under direct mind control via the song, whereas Angel was just very depressed and upset by visions?
But even if it took longer for Spike-- does it matter if in the end Spike did what it wanted too? In the end Spike was able to resist the evil's influence; would Angel have been able to do the same if his own torture had been prolonged? Or was Spike's only prolonged because he resisted longer, and Angel wanted to walk into the sun after just one episode? Spike's main mental tool of resistance was the knowledge that Buffy had faith in him, but Angel has always had her faith, love, and forgiveness. Is the difference between Spike and Angel that Angel doesn't associate his self worth by the people who love him and whom he loves, the way Spike does?
Is Spike's willingness to reconcile the demon and the soul in him as being the same person with different motivations give him some strength to resist the FE that Angel didn't have? Sort of a "there's nothing you can remind me of that I don't already know" thing?
And since you brought it up:
Angelus, take me, you mysterious black-clad hunk of a night thing.
***
From
shrift's LJ entry: My imaginary flip-fan now has a bored 'I'm a man-hating femi-nazi' scrawled across it in blood.
***
From
valereix's journal: When I was younger, I thought gun control was completely unnecessary. Gun control advocates would cite all these examples of children shooting themselves while playing with their parents' guns. I would think, "If you do something like that, it's not about gun control; you're just stupid." Then one day I accidentally maced myself. I've been a liberal ever since.
***
From
anniesj's 'Soulless' comments: (Angelus on American Idol)
SIMON: That was ghastly. Utterly ghastly. And that suit is horrible. Angelus?
ANGELUS: I'm going to eviscerate you with a spork. Because hey. Sporks are fun.
SIMON: Marry me, Angelus.
::mad giggling:: God I still think that's so funny.
***
From
lordshiva:If Angel/Angelus are modeled after Jeckyl and Hyde, what is the character of Spike modeled after? His evil/good demarcation is not as pronounced from what we've seen. Angelus and Angel by their own admission never loved. Spike on the other hand was quite swept away by love human or not, chipped or not, evil or not.
Damn good question. I can't help but think we're supposed to get something out of the fact that Spike doesn't have the double-personality thing post-soul that Angel does, but I don't know what that message is yet. But I think I talked about this earlier in this post, didn't I?
***
From
estepheia: A political joke:
President George Bush is visiting an elementary school and he visits one of the classes. They are in the middle of a discussion related to words and their meanings. The teacher asks the President if he would like to lead the class in the discussion of the word, tragedy. So the illustrious leader asks the class for an example of a tragedy. One little boy stands up and offers, "If my best friend, who lives
next door, is playing in the street and a car comes along and runs him
over, that would be a tragedy."
"No," says Bush, "that would be an ACCIDENT."
A little girl raises her hand: "If a school bus carrying 50 children drove off a cliff, killing everyone involved, that would be a tragedy."
"I´m afraid not," explains Mr. President. "That´s what we would call a GREAT LOSS." The room goes silent. No other children volunteer. President Bush searches the room. "Isn´t there someone here who can give me an example of a tragedy?"
Finally, way in the back of the room, a small boy raises his hand. In a quiet voice he says, "If Air Force One, carrying Mr. & Mrs. Bush, were struck by a missile and blown up to smithereens, by a terrorist like Osama bin Laden, that would be a tragedy."
"Fantastic," exclaims Bush, "that´s right. And can you tell me WHY that would be a TRAGEDY?"
"Well," says the boy, "because it wouldn´t be an accident, and it certainly wouldn´t be a great loss."
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Re: previous reply continued...
Date: 2003-02-06 10:35 pm (UTC)That said...*G*...I think he tells Connor there is a difference for the reason I stated above. Connor wants a family- that's ALL he wants, as was evidenced by the scene where he cried after finding the slaughtered family in the ep Soulless. What's interesting, is that this is really all Angel wants as well.
But Angel wants Connor to feel he already *has* a family- ie, a father who loved and wanted him, and a mother figure in Cordelia. This is why Angelus uses the family angle to torture Connor in the first place- he knows what Connor wants, because Angel knows what Connor wants.
Another interesting note is that Angelus himself liked the notion of family. If he and Darla weren't parental units of a twisted and malevolent sort to Spike n Dru (and possibly that other pair of vamps we saw when Holtz was introduced last season, whose names escape me) than I'm the Queen of England. The main difference between Angel and Angelus in terms of familial relationships is that Angel is occasionally willing to defer power.
As far as Spike goes, I dunno what/who he is gonna become, but I hope they hurry up. I'm darn close to losing interest already, they've wasted so much time with the insanity thing. I hear what you're saying about him not being Angel, but frankly? I think it's wishful thinking. I don't see anything different between the two of them as souled critters, except for the level and content of remorse, which again, I think can be explained by religion, and yes, good point, their century of upbringing.
Re: previous reply continued...
Date: 2003-02-06 10:57 pm (UTC)See, that's a personal taste issue. I like leaner guys rather than super-broad-shouldered guys. They're both nicely muscled, but I'd definitely go for Spike's body-type over Angel's.
If he and Darla weren't parental units of a twisted and malevolent sort to Spike n Dru (and possibly that other pair of vamps we saw when Holtz was introduced last season, whose names escape me) than I'm the Queen of England.
I think the family / incest / familial power-plays dynamics between Angel, Darla, Spike, and Dru is something every Buffy fan can agree on, regardless of ship or character fandom. It's both disturbing and fascinating, and has played out nicely in both Angel and Spike's characters. As you say, having and protecting/providing for a family is very important to Angel. And Spike clearly began seeking out the Scooby Gang as his replacement family after Dru left him. The importance of having "a gang" was something he brought up specifically to Buffy in FFL--which I guess we can take as something that was important A) for social/emotional bonds, B) for protection/survival, and c) for the power hierarchy among other vampires [who you ran with determined how hihgly you wre regarded among your peers].
I wonder why it seemed to matter more to Angel and Spike than to Darla and Drusilla, though? Or maybe I'm wrong about Darla-- I didn't see her whole arc on AtS, only read about it.