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timepiececlockI remember reading reactions from the comics fans on my flist when the cover for Marvel's new potential series Divas was leaked. It seemed pretty offensive, but I was prepared to dismiss it as used-to-it-whatever stuff from media entertainment, but today I saw a quote that prompted me to make login accounts with a bunch of different websites just so I could shout back at the stupidity. And I'm not even a comics reader! But the sad thing is, I'm so close to being one. I even considered it after watching the Wolverine movie. And yet, every time I almost jump in, something sends me running in the opposite direction. Like this.
I could go on about Quesada’s dispiritingly poor use of hypothetical "logic" to make his point, or I could talk about the sexism *in* the argument he advocates. Or wait, I could do both! Let me do a comparable example to match his:
Approx. July of 1776 - August of 1920
M: “Oh, you don’t like not being able to vote? Well, why are you an American? Why don’t you go live somewhere else, huh? Unless you’re *not* an American, in which case, baby doll, I don’t think you actually understand what democracy means and of course no one will give you votes if that’s the case. But I’m sure you don’t really want to be involved in politics anyway, since it’s not really of interest to ladies, we all know that.”
Sounds pretty ridiculous, right?
So was his argument. Let's break it down:
"If you're [a] Marvel reader and truly feel we're sexist, then why are you reading our books?"
That statement, and its use of pronoun, says loud and clear that Quesada does not consider women and girls as any part of Marvel's audience. Not even a little. People who might find it sexist--which it's clear Quesada assumes is only women--are not part of "our". That's the first problem.
The second is the sheer ridiculousness of that statement. Women and girls, just like men and boys, read superhero comics because women and men like superheroes. They like adventure and battles and cool costumes and larger-than-life stories. Since Marvel is a behemoth in the industry with decades of beloved characters, the idea that women aren't going to read them is ridiculous. And what, should women stop going to movies because they think most movies have male protagonists? Stop watching tv? Stop reading Sci-Fi novels? Give up on media altogether? That's nonsense. Women read comic books because they like the best of Marvel, not the worst.
"Now, perhaps you're not a Marvel reader, then if that's the case, I'm not quite sure what you're criticizing if you don't read our books?"
There's a neat little circle trap that doesn't even try to veil itself in tact or artistry of prose. Only people in the audience can criticize, but if women don't like what they see, then it's better for them to stop reading rather than to criticize!
Yeah, nothing sexist there. ^eyeroll^ You can read the full statement here, scroll down near the bottom. It actually gets worse with context.
The thing is, here, I am the perfect candidate for Marvel to build their female audience up. I'm a nerd girl with long fangirl history. I love geek stuff. I watch the movies. I read the books. I watch anime and read manga. I go to conventions. I talk and talk and talk about the geeky media that I love. I harp on continuity and I applaud characterization. I will spend money. I'll by junk just because it has a character's face on it. I'm a freaking dream to these companies. Why aren't they courting me? Courting us?
I was discussing with![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
irrel why both of us like manga (well, I like anime, and I sort of like manga in conjunction with that) but neither of us can really get into American comics or comic-based cartoons. And what we both agreed on was that we just don't feel welcome. Just looking at the art, it screams "FOR BOYS FOR BOYS FOR BOYS." At least with manga, even with all the sexism I complain about, I still can tell that manga exists for both male and female audiences. It has both male and female creators. It sells, and sells well, to male and female readers. There's gender divisions in the material, but there's still manga writers and artists who cross those divisions. Women who write shonen series like FMA and Ranma. Even if the communication is rough, I feel that at least they know female readers exist.
I have had a limited amount of exposure to American comics. It's all what seeps in through pop culture and shows like I Love The 80s. I know the big characters, the ones on t-shirts or in the movies, and the ones from occasional viewings of tv cartoons. That's where I come from when I say that I look at Marvel and DC comics in the bookstores and all I see is "Not for you! Not for you!"
So instead, I watch anime, and sometimes, if I buy anything in a drawn format, I buy manga. There's a few titles I'm very loyal to. Some of them are overtly for girls (Furuba) and some of them aren't (Blade of the Immortal), but both types invite me in rather than pushing me out.
This is just a question, but... are the American comics industry even bothering to ask themselves why girls and women are latching onto Asian comics, cartoons, and fetishist stuff? Is that discussion happening?
Because I can see the reality of it in comic stores and book stores. And I can promise you that it's not the submissive-clumsy female leads or the influence of a sexist culture that's attracting me, because I can find that in American entertainment media just as easily. It's something more. And if the comics industry in America could convince me that I'd find that something in American comics, and if the art wasn't quite so off-putting with the asses and the boobs, I'd probably try picking up a comic book. But I'm not feeling the love from Marvel and DC, not really. And that's their loss.
ETA: I have read one Western comic series--I read several volumes of Elfquest in middle school because my local library had it on the shelf. Loved it. Whatever the "something" was, they had it.
"If you're [a] Marvel reader and truly feel we're sexist, then why are you reading our books? Now, perhaps you're not a Marvel reader, then if that's the case, I'm not quite sure what you're criticizing if you don't read our books?" - Joe Quesada
I could go on about Quesada’s dispiritingly poor use of hypothetical "logic" to make his point, or I could talk about the sexism *in* the argument he advocates. Or wait, I could do both! Let me do a comparable example to match his:
Approx. July of 1776 - August of 1920
M: “Oh, you don’t like not being able to vote? Well, why are you an American? Why don’t you go live somewhere else, huh? Unless you’re *not* an American, in which case, baby doll, I don’t think you actually understand what democracy means and of course no one will give you votes if that’s the case. But I’m sure you don’t really want to be involved in politics anyway, since it’s not really of interest to ladies, we all know that.”
Sounds pretty ridiculous, right?
So was his argument. Let's break it down:
"If you're [a] Marvel reader and truly feel we're sexist, then why are you reading our books?"
That statement, and its use of pronoun, says loud and clear that Quesada does not consider women and girls as any part of Marvel's audience. Not even a little. People who might find it sexist--which it's clear Quesada assumes is only women--are not part of "our". That's the first problem.
The second is the sheer ridiculousness of that statement. Women and girls, just like men and boys, read superhero comics because women and men like superheroes. They like adventure and battles and cool costumes and larger-than-life stories. Since Marvel is a behemoth in the industry with decades of beloved characters, the idea that women aren't going to read them is ridiculous. And what, should women stop going to movies because they think most movies have male protagonists? Stop watching tv? Stop reading Sci-Fi novels? Give up on media altogether? That's nonsense. Women read comic books because they like the best of Marvel, not the worst.
"Now, perhaps you're not a Marvel reader, then if that's the case, I'm not quite sure what you're criticizing if you don't read our books?"
There's a neat little circle trap that doesn't even try to veil itself in tact or artistry of prose. Only people in the audience can criticize, but if women don't like what they see, then it's better for them to stop reading rather than to criticize!
Yeah, nothing sexist there. ^eyeroll^ You can read the full statement here, scroll down near the bottom. It actually gets worse with context.
The thing is, here, I am the perfect candidate for Marvel to build their female audience up. I'm a nerd girl with long fangirl history. I love geek stuff. I watch the movies. I read the books. I watch anime and read manga. I go to conventions. I talk and talk and talk about the geeky media that I love. I harp on continuity and I applaud characterization. I will spend money. I'll by junk just because it has a character's face on it. I'm a freaking dream to these companies. Why aren't they courting me? Courting us?
I was discussing with
irrel why both of us like manga (well, I like anime, and I sort of like manga in conjunction with that) but neither of us can really get into American comics or comic-based cartoons. And what we both agreed on was that we just don't feel welcome. Just looking at the art, it screams "FOR BOYS FOR BOYS FOR BOYS." At least with manga, even with all the sexism I complain about, I still can tell that manga exists for both male and female audiences. It has both male and female creators. It sells, and sells well, to male and female readers. There's gender divisions in the material, but there's still manga writers and artists who cross those divisions. Women who write shonen series like FMA and Ranma. Even if the communication is rough, I feel that at least they know female readers exist. I have had a limited amount of exposure to American comics. It's all what seeps in through pop culture and shows like I Love The 80s. I know the big characters, the ones on t-shirts or in the movies, and the ones from occasional viewings of tv cartoons. That's where I come from when I say that I look at Marvel and DC comics in the bookstores and all I see is "Not for you! Not for you!"
So instead, I watch anime, and sometimes, if I buy anything in a drawn format, I buy manga. There's a few titles I'm very loyal to. Some of them are overtly for girls (Furuba) and some of them aren't (Blade of the Immortal), but both types invite me in rather than pushing me out.
This is just a question, but... are the American comics industry even bothering to ask themselves why girls and women are latching onto Asian comics, cartoons, and fetishist stuff? Is that discussion happening?
Because I can see the reality of it in comic stores and book stores. And I can promise you that it's not the submissive-clumsy female leads or the influence of a sexist culture that's attracting me, because I can find that in American entertainment media just as easily. It's something more. And if the comics industry in America could convince me that I'd find that something in American comics, and if the art wasn't quite so off-putting with the asses and the boobs, I'd probably try picking up a comic book. But I'm not feeling the love from Marvel and DC, not really. And that's their loss.
ETA: I have read one Western comic series--I read several volumes of Elfquest in middle school because my local library had it on the shelf. Loved it. Whatever the "something" was, they had it.
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no subject
Date: 2009-05-07 09:26 am (UTC)From what I've seen most professionals in the American comics industry have no idea why manga and anime are so popular here in North America; many of them are outright dismissive of manga and anime in their entirety and belittle readers who do like manga and anime. I think I've seen maybe one discussion re: why girls and women are purchasing Asian comics, cartoons, etc., and the conclusion was basically "I have no idea why."
Well, and what it usually comes down to when I've seen it discussed is "manga has girly things like emotions and romance and shopping and unicorns, so it's TOTALLY DIFFERENT from American superhero comics and therefore it's completely unreasonable to expect that American superhero comics could ever appeal to girls or women, because they would have to change so drastically that they wouldn't be superhero comics any more," like basically what it comes down to is that misogyny is just *so precious* and so necessary to the genre that everything would collapse without it, I guess...?
And it's like, dude, yes, there is Relationship Manga and Teen Angst Manga and High School Drama Manga-- like, "Twilight," except manga--! But there's also SO MUCH manga out there that's popular with girls, and it's fantasy action adventure with ninjas and magic powers and monsters and giant robots-- *superheroes*, even if they're not CALLED superheroes. What was Sailor Moon? She was a superhero! She's Ultimate Peter Parker in a skirt! It's not that "girls don't like superheroes!" But you STILL see people saying this all the time, despite the explosion of manga that is basically superheroes-for-girls.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-07 09:38 am (UTC)Sailor Moon is actually part of the reason I keep looking with curiousity at comics, wondering if I should get involved. Even though it was flawed, I adored Sailor Moon. I loved that she was a superhero who spent all her school day exhausted because she spent half her nights running around in a ridiculous outfit fighting monsters and crime. I loved that she had to balance having a real life with having a superhero responsibility.
And then she had a team! A whole team of other superhero girls with the same superhero problems! And she had a superhero boyfriend whose identity she didn't know IRL, but kind of knew anyway and had contentious flirting with! When I revisit the fandom I still tend to read/watch stuff from the first season--the season when identities were still secret, when the pressure to be normal vs. super was at its most realized.
All things considered, Buffy was a better superhero because she got more done and did it better than SM. But Buffy wasn't a traditional superhero. She didn't hide in a costume, and her identity was known. Even to the point that she, by the open name of Buffy Summers, was the Boogieman of all low-level vampires and demons in the town. She felt the desire to be normal, but after the first two seasons she didn't have to hide who she was.
I like secret identities, and costumes, and mistaken identities and hidden roles. I've always liked that about superhero stuff. SM was the only show I've ever really fangirlled that gave me that.
(coherency potentially limited by finals panic.)
Date: 2009-05-07 01:06 pm (UTC)Along with that there's the idea that boys couldn't possibly be interested in stories that deal with emotions and relationships, which very neatly ignores the very large group of male readers who are interested in emotional storytelling and relationships, as everyone knows emotions and romance are the purview of women and therefore uninteresting and inferior. And I hate that women are told not to read superhero comics if they don't like misogyny for all the reasons detailed - because it's demeaning, because it's stupid, because it assumes that women are just looking for things to complain about, because evidently it is impossible to love something and yet notice flaws that need to and can be corrected, because ultimately what it says is that women are unimportant - but also because the assumption is that it's okay and even expected to encourage and sell misogynistic storytelling and imagery to boys and men. It's not. It isn't okay to sell that shit to anyone.
And it's like, dude, yes, there is Relationship Manga and Teen Angst Manga and High School Drama Manga-- like, "Twilight," except manga--! But there's also SO MUCH manga out there that's popular with girls, and it's fantasy action adventure with ninjas and magic powers and monsters and giant robots-- *superheroes*, even if they're not CALLED superheroes.
Yes, yes, yes, THANK YOU. As if girls and women don't compose the majority of the shounen-reading audience in the USA, as if shoujo consists entirely of melodramatic love stories set in middle or high schools and never once delves into epic fantasy or philosophical science fiction or superheroism (and as if melodramatic love stories are somehow immediately devoid of any artistic value), as if it's impossible to enjoy emotional storytelling AND dudes getting punched in the face, as if everything can be simplified to a single argument which can then be discarded so the comics industry can go on without being forced to do something terrifying like change.
BLAH.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-07 01:11 pm (UTC)