(no subject)

[timepiececlock]

Ok, Kenneth Branagh? Looking good with the nakedness.

I'd only read about a third of this play so far in and of itself, so I've been reading along with it as the movie goes. The movie seems to be word for word perfect so far, except for a weird voice-over monologue that Hemlet did while running through the bog to find his father's ghost. That monologue must have been cut and pasted from another part of the play, or left out of my book (Folger Library) entirely.

I've decided to make an icon of this love poem from Hamlet to Ophelia:

Doubt thou the star are fire,
Doubt that the sun doth move,
Doubt truth to be a liar,
But never doubt I love.

Impending tragedy aside, this will make a wonderful Spuffy icon.

Comments

[girlwithjournal.livejournal.com]

Impending tragedy aside, this will make a wonderful Spuffy icon.

Who, in your opinion, is Hamlet - Spike or Buffy?

Re:

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

uh... for just the poem alone, I was going to go with the speaker being Spike, because he's always the one loudly proclaiming his eternal love.

In the context of the play as a whoole... I've got no idea. I don't actually think you can relate either character to Hamlet himself very well. Maybe another shakespeare character[s] instead?

[girlwithjournal.livejournal.com]

uh... for just the poem alone, I was going to go with the speaker being Spike, because he's always the one loudly proclaiming his eternal love.

Quite right.

In the context of the play as a whoole... I've got no idea. I don't actually think you can relate either character to Hamlet himself very well. Maybe another shakespeare character[s] instead?

Yeah, I agree that Hamlet in general doesn't work for Spuffy - I just like questions like that. I can't really think of a Shakespeare play that does work, but now I want to play, so I'll muse on it some more. The Gunn/Fred/Wesley Othello parallel from AtS a couple weeks ago was obvious, but still enjoyable. Connections are yummy.

Re:

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Well, maybe not Shaespeare, but classical mythology is better. I did read an online essay once comparing Spike & Buffy arc of season six (especially the end) to Psyche & Cupid/Eos that was very convincing.

It was all about Psyche betraying Cupid's trust (remember, with the "don't look at me at night" thing, and the candlewax) and then having to endure numerous tests to win back love, much the way that Spike had to endure his own trials, get his soul, and endure torture to be worthy of Buffy's affection again.

[girlwithjournal.livejournal.com]

My knowledge of mythology leaves something to be desired, but from what you said, this makes sense. Now if only I could find my childhood illustrated book of Greek mythology...

but...

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

but if you can think of another shakespeare play that fits, do tell!

Re: but...

[girlwithjournal.livejournal.com]

I've got nothing. Damn.

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure whether Buffy is quite dithering and equivocal enough to warrant being 'Hamlet', but I've gotta say, there have been certain times last season and this when Spike has born a startling resemblance to Ophelia.

[girlwithjournal.livejournal.com]

D'oh! Of course! And Buffy was definitely the one responsible for breaking Spike, just as Hamlet was for Ophelia. Luckily, vampires can't drown - even if the First never got the memo.

Re:

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

And Buffy was definitely the one responsible for breaking Spike, just as Hamlet was for Ophelia.

yeah... (pardon my further 'dithering' ;) )...I just watched the scene a while ago where he totally tells her off with "I loved you once" and all that (I'm painfully slow in my viewing process)-- and it made me all sad and upset. Damn those friggin actors! Making me all invovled and emotionally invested. Also, because I know in summary what happens but not in detail (and we haven't gotten this far in class discussion yet) I can' figure out what Hamlet's deal is here with her. I thought he was only pretending to be insane, but then his feelings of anger at Ophelia seemed to be pretty genuine. So was he suposedly mad because she shunned him? Or was he too caught up in thsi thing with his fahter & uncle that he just didn't care about loving her anymore? Maybe I need to get to the rest...

[wickedprincess3.livejournal.com]

Hamlet is fence-sitting-guy poster child. Half the stupid stuff that happens is cause of his inability to just make up his mind. Also Shakespeare could be a big ole misogynist when he wanted to be.

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

Half the stupid stuff that happens is cause of his inability to just make up his mind.

That was exactly my problem with Hamlet, both the character and the play.

I know a lot of scholars admire Hamlet and see him as some kind of early 'alienated intellectual'. But he just made me roll my eyes. The whole time I was reading that play I was mentally screaming: "C'mon mate, just make a friggin' decision"!

[wickedprincess3.livejournal.com]

I agree. I'll always have a certain "I was 13 when I read this and adored it for the tragic angst" attatchment. But as a semi-adult I just want to shake and scream "this play should only be about 20 min long! Do something!"

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

Um...gee, I have to think back a couple of years here. But I did Hamlet as univerity honours level, and from memory it was arguable either way whether Hamlet is or isn't really insane, although majority opinion was that it was all an act.

Still, the guy is obsessed with vengeance of ever-more involved conspiracy theories and is taking advice from the 'ghost' of his dead father (real, or a hallucination?). Those, plus his words to Ophelia, indicate that even if he was 'faking' most of the insanity, he was still a couple of cans short of a six-pack.

On Ophelia, and Hamlet's treatment of her, I think it's influenced at least partially by Hamlet's belief that he has been betrayed, likely as a result of (what he sees as) the mental weakness of women. In addition to that, it seems to me that Hamlet has a very strong dislike for - even disgust at - the concept of female sexuality, and that taints his relationships with both Ophelia and his mother. I think he's genuinely disgusted with the both of them for having any desires at all, and that's embodied in his nasty words to Ophelia, and to his request that his mother stop sleeping with his uncle (for forbid she have any lustful feelings). Still, it's difficult to separate the character of Hamlet from the age in which Shakespeare was writing, so it's debatable whether the entire arc was some attempt to put the hypocrisy of the men in the play on display, or whether it was just a reflection of Elizabethan attitudes generally…

Okay, I'm bluffing now because I seriously can't remember all that much of the play. Geez, it was only a couple of years ago...

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

These are all great points, and I totally agree. But I can't think enough to reply with anything good right now. ;)

Re:

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

there have been certain times last season and this when Spike has born a startling resemblance to Ophelia.

Yeah, I can see that. An aguable analogy. Makes me feel sorry for him all over again.