Briefly Furious.
Jul. 6th, 2003 03:15 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlockSometimes I get upset when I realize that there's people out there that I just can not agree with, whose basic world view is so profoundly different from my own that we simply will not mesh and I frequently want nothing more than to blast them off to Saturn, far away from me, my country, and all my descendants & their friends.
No, I'm not talking about other religions like Islam verus Christianity. No, what's currently got me in a huff is Christianity versus the US government.
I was reading an interesting article in today's Mercury newspaper about women in power, and how influencial women like Hilary Clinton and Martha Stewart have to be seen as "victims" for us to like them, and before that they're villified. It thought it was a good article. It didn't bring up Carly Fiorina, CEO of Hewelet Packard, who I see as a "villain." I never had a villianous view of Hilary, but Fiorina got my dad and the parents of my classmates and half the people in the South Bay laid off, so she qualifies as villian status. It'd be the same if she was a man.
Anyway, the article talked about the increasing number of women in politics, and accpetance of their positions of power. They described off-hand an organization called Concerned Women For America, whom they quoted for "vowing" to bring "biblical principles into all levels of public policy."
I jumped out of my chair, leaned close over the table and read it again to make sure I hadn't misread. I would have thrown a rant right there if there'd been anyone around to hear it.
I hate the idea that there's organizations of 500,000 people whose statement of purpose is in direct opposition to everything eblazoned on the American Constitution and the life words and work of the people who founded a nation that I've been in love with practically since the I was old enough to say "It's a free country" and know what that meant. Which would have been approximately two years old.
I want to send them to Saturn. I want a big Send The Traitorous Freaks To Saturn Button, that I can press and feel at ease knowing that public institutions are gloriously free of God's interference.
Every once in a while I see something like this that sets me off. My parents mostly let me talk on and on when it happens and nod appropriately. I want them here so they can nod and agree with the Saturn Plan.
No, I'm not talking about other religions like Islam verus Christianity. No, what's currently got me in a huff is Christianity versus the US government.
I was reading an interesting article in today's Mercury newspaper about women in power, and how influencial women like Hilary Clinton and Martha Stewart have to be seen as "victims" for us to like them, and before that they're villified. It thought it was a good article. It didn't bring up Carly Fiorina, CEO of Hewelet Packard, who I see as a "villain." I never had a villianous view of Hilary, but Fiorina got my dad and the parents of my classmates and half the people in the South Bay laid off, so she qualifies as villian status. It'd be the same if she was a man.
Anyway, the article talked about the increasing number of women in politics, and accpetance of their positions of power. They described off-hand an organization called Concerned Women For America, whom they quoted for "vowing" to bring "biblical principles into all levels of public policy."
I jumped out of my chair, leaned close over the table and read it again to make sure I hadn't misread. I would have thrown a rant right there if there'd been anyone around to hear it.
I hate the idea that there's organizations of 500,000 people whose statement of purpose is in direct opposition to everything eblazoned on the American Constitution and the life words and work of the people who founded a nation that I've been in love with practically since the I was old enough to say "It's a free country" and know what that meant. Which would have been approximately two years old.
I want to send them to Saturn. I want a big Send The Traitorous Freaks To Saturn Button, that I can press and feel at ease knowing that public institutions are gloriously free of God's interference.
Every once in a while I see something like this that sets me off. My parents mostly let me talk on and on when it happens and nod appropriately. I want them here so they can nod and agree with the Saturn Plan.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-07-06 03:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-06 03:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-06 03:33 pm (UTC)Re:
Date: 2003-07-06 04:34 pm (UTC)I feel like a feminist every time I go to church in Utah, because all of the married mothers are all submissive wives who think the priesthood is the best thing since sliced bread even though they were the ones who popped out the herd of children. But in california a lot of the moms held their own, had jobs, and didn't wait at home all day to welcome their husbands at the door and rub their feet.
Re:
Date: 2003-07-06 04:50 pm (UTC)That's what my friend said when he visited Utah in his senior year. He said the temples were wonderful and the land was pretty but he didn't want to live there cause the people scared him.
My Quaker cousin, (also 19) who lives in Salt Lake City was visiting me here in San Jose the year before last and she even commented on the cultural difference.
I feel like a feminist every time I go to church in Utah, because all of the married mothers are all submissive wives who think the priesthood is the best thing since sliced bread even though they were the ones who popped out the herd of children. But in california a lot of the moms held their own, had jobs, and didn't wait at home all day to welcome their husbands at the door and rub their feet.
That gives me sad and ultra-feministy thoughts too.
The thing I wonder about is how long it can continue. Because the way the American economy is changing, and right now most people have to have two working parents to support a family of four. Soon (if not already) it will be a necessity almost everywhere that isn't the uppermost 1 % rich. And once they do work, change is inevitable.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-06 03:32 pm (UTC)There's even a lot of contoversy over the the pledge of alegiance that you'd take every morning in school:
I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America, once nation, under God,
indivisible, for liberty and justice for all.
The "under God" part was added during the Cold War, god knows why. There's people campaigning that forcing students to take the pledge is unconstitutional because of that phrase. I deliberately stopped saying that part of the pledge some time around 5th grade.
High schools are allowed to have Christian Clubs (or other religious clubs), provided that they don't meet during class times.
My High School had a good sized Christian club, and occaisionally they'd meet and make a prayer circle in the middle of the quad (one day there was about 50 people). Sometimes people would mock them. I wanted to (when they had their head down and were totally silent, it was seriously tempting), but there were people I liked in the club so I quashed my childish impulses.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-06 03:50 pm (UTC)There were literally three atheists and non-Christians in my yeargroup of 100, including myself. In my final year I threw a *fucking hissy fit* in my RE class because the teacher called me an idiot for believing in nonsensical things like atoms and evolution (I didn't care that she was teaching creationism. I did care that she was making up scientific facts and presenting them as truth). Good thing I didn't point out I was Pagan.
My school was very very extreme (although the vast majority of people here are churchgoers). I've spoken to people who went to convent schools in this country that were nowhere near as religiously psychotic as my state school. It still bugs me, though.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-06 04:25 pm (UTC)There were literally three atheists and non-Christians in my yeargroup of 100, including myself
That seems so odd to me. I know most of my classmates were christian, and my friends and aquaintances knew I was an atheist, but it was never really something that was a big deal. I don't even know what all my high school friends believed in. I know my best friend's a Catholic who pretends to not want to be but probably still believes in God even if she doesn't like anything else about it. I had a friend who was Mormon that I talked to several times about religion; we both liked friendly debate. He couldn't understand why I didn't want spirituality in my life, and I couldn't make him understand that I had faith in the human race and myself and that was all I needed.
In my final year I threw a *fucking hissy fit* in my RE class because the teacher called me an idiot for believing in nonsensical things like atoms and evolution (I didn't care that she was teaching creationism. I did care that she was making up scientific facts and presenting them as truth).
Wow. See, this is the kind of thing I read about and see in movies. Some communities in the deep South are lobbying to get both creationism and evolution taught in schools, but the problem always comes up that Creationism is relgion and since they can't teach EVERY religion, they shouldn't teach any. It's still a touchy issue in many places in the US, but legally it shouldn't happen. I've never had a prayer in school.
I did argue with my 7th - 9th grade girl scout leader about going to church on Sundays when we took a three-week trip in my final year with her troop. She said that GS are a private organization and if I don't want to go to church, I don't have to go on the trip. So I went. Twice with the Christian group and once with the Catholic group. A few times I thought about walking out, but it was summer in Southern California, and frankly it was easier playing with the hymn books and doodling than sitting out in the hot sun and pissing everyone off.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-06 03:57 pm (UTC)Radical groups that want to mix Christianity and politics make me despair of being a Christian! Of course, usually the second impulse is to just counteract their unhelpful acts as much as possible. My sister and I were having a discussion last night about radically conservative Christianity and our annoyance with it.
I'm totally against government and religion mixing. If you want a really good picture of what that does, just take a look at the Dark Ages when the Catholic church had almost total control over all of the governments in Europe and parts of the Middle East today where the government and religion are very closely intertwined. It does not make for a very people friendly country.
While I'm not necessarily against some Biblical principles being used in Public Policy-after all, many of those Biblical principles are the same or very similar as priniples from other religion and for a good reason, they're good solid priniples on how we should relate with people around us-I hate 'active religioning' in government. Point blank, I find it dangerous. There's a very good reason church and state are separate. A very good reason.
Re:
Date: 2003-07-06 04:09 pm (UTC)Yep. That goes back to the Enlightenment Era philosophy that was happening when American was founded, and Locke's ideas of natural rights. The principles he named as natural rights-- freedom, the right to live and co-exist peacefully with others-- those these are in every religion: "Wouldn't it be great if we could all be nice to each other?"
That sort of thing is also a gib part of America's political and social culture, and thus is reflected in our laws and policies.
-I hate 'active religioning' in government.
That's a good term-- haven't heard that one before.
Point blank, I find it dangerous. There's a very good reason church and state are separate. A very good reason.
I get pretty paranoid about stuff like this-- some days it's religion, some days it's women's rights, some days it's privacy and civil rights. Often they intersect.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-06 06:18 pm (UTC)Exactly. That's pretty much what I consider the last six ten commandments to me-the ones that deal with your relationship with people rather than relationship with God. And those are the principles that probably any government should be built around and most decent governments are built around.
That's a good term-- haven't heard that one before.
That's because I just made it up. ;)
*grinds teeth*
Date: 2003-07-06 04:04 pm (UTC)I'm sure you already know this, but I just want to (really really really) emphasize that this kind of behavior exemplifies scary radical fundamentalist Christians, NOT the entire faith. My God is a good and loving God. And the things some people do reportedly in His name frighten me no end. ;P
Re: *grinds teeth*
Date: 2003-07-06 04:43 pm (UTC)I'm sure you already know this, but I just want to (really really really) emphasize that this kind of behavior exemplifies scary radical fundamentalist Christians, NOT the entire faith.
I'm well aware. Feel free to use my jorunal space to growl at fanatics that give you a bad reputation. ;)
Re: *grinds teeth*
Date: 2003-07-06 06:22 pm (UTC)Can I just applaud this!? You've pretty much summed up my thoughts very succintly, if somewhat passionately. ;)
no subject
Date: 2003-07-06 06:03 pm (UTC)oh yes. oooh yes.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-06 06:57 pm (UTC)kissingkissingkissingkissingkissingkissingkissingkissingkissingkissingkissing.... I'm sorry, what were we talking about? Oh, right. Religion+govt=bad. Glad you agree.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-07 05:05 am (UTC)Just sayin'.
Re:
Date: 2003-07-07 11:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-07 06:37 am (UTC)And, of course, it's "biblical principles" as they interpret it. Grrrr. These groups piss me off not just because they want to ram their brand of Christianity down everyone's throats, they assume that their brand is the only brand. Yes, I have in-laws who sit there and think they're being "liberal" if they admit that they know one or two Catholics who might actually be considered Christians...and who judge whether someone's Christianity is good or not on their narrow standards.
It's not so much that God shouldn't be a part of government (a good person of principles will be guided and influenced by their faith no matter what they believe in), but that we don't need bigoted, narrow-minded idiots of whatever stripe thinking they have the One True Way.
Re:
Date: 2003-07-07 11:01 am (UTC)