HP and BTVS, and fan entitlement.
Jul. 20th, 2003 05:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlockSo, I've been having a lot of fun looking around fictionalley.org, the Harry Potter fan-forum extraordonaire. First off, the thing is HUGE. There's like 5 major foum sections, with subdividing forums like you wouldn't believe, and then within each of those 20 or so, there's multiple pages worth of varying threads. It's like a zoo.
I've been paying attention and sort of absorbing the way the fans behave. The shippers generally make the effort to be nice to each other even if they disagree, and I get the feeling that the place is highly patrolled by mods. Everyone talks about everything, including going into immense detail about little things-- like philosphizing on the motivations of very minor minor characters. People seem to have very strong fanon opinions-- things they think about the characters that aren't mentioned in the book. There seems to be a subtle pressure to look at the characters the way they do, rather than straight from the book. However, there's so many different opinions about everything that nothing is uniform or set in stone.
I did notice something that reminded me of Buffy fandom, especially shipper fanatics. There's this huge sense of entitlement amongst everyone, like they feel JKR owes them their pairing, and this one single line in an 850 page book proves it beyond all doubt. Everyone loves to reach, make connections that seem almost ludicrous they're so threadbare, and yet they get accepted. It's like the feeling I get when I used to visit the Ducks Babble Board (it was my espionage shipper phase.)
Entitlement is something I don't really feel about fandom. For instance, when I started watching Buffy in season 6, I wanted a Spuffy ending. Badly. I really really did. But I never felt like it was *owed* to me. I may have joked about it (in fact I'm fairly sure that I did after Tabula Rasa and OMWF), but the sense of due was not there. So when we got a Spuffy ending I was happy and satisfied, but not feeling like I had collected a debt. The Buffy/Angel forums I visited at verious points last year often went back to the same complaint-- Angel was Buffy's first love, and maybe her soulmate (though wasn't that a fanon idea, NOT a canon statement?) and therefore Joss owed them a B/A ending. I just want to say "What makes you think they owe you anything. They're the creators, not you. You choose to watch of your own accord, so stop complaining." I have come to have a smiliar outlook on Spike. So you think he ought to remain bad and snarky forever, and they ruined your favorite character? Tough. If you can't like the way characters have changed, don't watch.
I pretty much feel that writers don't owe their fans anything. I know lots of people feel differently, but that's really how I see it. It's your work, and they're paying for the right to watch it or read it. Now, let me clarify. They do owe their fans politeness. Celebrities should be polite to their fans, I've always felt. But they owe them nothing in what they create. We often feel great attachments to characters like Tara and Spike, but when it comes down to it, they're not our characters, they're Mutant Enemy's characters. And Joss decides to kill them or write them into a spin-off, that's the way it goes, folks. It's all canon now. If you write a book or make a movie or tv show, it's your project, your creative work. If fans embrace it that's wonderful, but bowing to the demands of your fans means you're not doing it any more, and chances are it will lose that special thing that attracted fans in the first place.
There's a term for that. Sell-out. Doesn't bring positive connotations, does it?
What would I like to see in the rest of the Harry Potter books? I'd like to see Harry/Luna as a pairing. Does the fact that a few possible hints were dropped in OotP mean that she owes it to me? No. It's her books. And more to the point, I want to read the books written by JKR, not by JKR's fans, even myself.
Now, there is one situation in which I almost came close to that entitlement feeling, and that was with The X Files. I did kinda feel that the longer the show lasted, the more Chris Carter was duty-bound to make a Sculder ending. But since I left after middle of season 7, that feeling never really came to the forefront of my fan perspective of the show. In my head Mulder and Scully were soul mates, and it was just happy coincidence that CC brought them together for the ending (which I did take the time to watch, though I didn't understand a lot of it.)
The question of entitlement is a bit different though, when it comes to remaking something or transferring from a book to a film. In that case, the writer/creator isn't original, and therefore he does owe to the original work, and fans have a right to expect that the new work be a good match ot the original that they loved. Since Buffy, the XF, and the HP books are not remakes, it's a moot point.
I've been paying attention and sort of absorbing the way the fans behave. The shippers generally make the effort to be nice to each other even if they disagree, and I get the feeling that the place is highly patrolled by mods. Everyone talks about everything, including going into immense detail about little things-- like philosphizing on the motivations of very minor minor characters. People seem to have very strong fanon opinions-- things they think about the characters that aren't mentioned in the book. There seems to be a subtle pressure to look at the characters the way they do, rather than straight from the book. However, there's so many different opinions about everything that nothing is uniform or set in stone.
I did notice something that reminded me of Buffy fandom, especially shipper fanatics. There's this huge sense of entitlement amongst everyone, like they feel JKR owes them their pairing, and this one single line in an 850 page book proves it beyond all doubt. Everyone loves to reach, make connections that seem almost ludicrous they're so threadbare, and yet they get accepted. It's like the feeling I get when I used to visit the Ducks Babble Board (it was my espionage shipper phase.)
Entitlement is something I don't really feel about fandom. For instance, when I started watching Buffy in season 6, I wanted a Spuffy ending. Badly. I really really did. But I never felt like it was *owed* to me. I may have joked about it (in fact I'm fairly sure that I did after Tabula Rasa and OMWF), but the sense of due was not there. So when we got a Spuffy ending I was happy and satisfied, but not feeling like I had collected a debt. The Buffy/Angel forums I visited at verious points last year often went back to the same complaint-- Angel was Buffy's first love, and maybe her soulmate (though wasn't that a fanon idea, NOT a canon statement?) and therefore Joss owed them a B/A ending. I just want to say "What makes you think they owe you anything. They're the creators, not you. You choose to watch of your own accord, so stop complaining." I have come to have a smiliar outlook on Spike. So you think he ought to remain bad and snarky forever, and they ruined your favorite character? Tough. If you can't like the way characters have changed, don't watch.
I pretty much feel that writers don't owe their fans anything. I know lots of people feel differently, but that's really how I see it. It's your work, and they're paying for the right to watch it or read it. Now, let me clarify. They do owe their fans politeness. Celebrities should be polite to their fans, I've always felt. But they owe them nothing in what they create. We often feel great attachments to characters like Tara and Spike, but when it comes down to it, they're not our characters, they're Mutant Enemy's characters. And Joss decides to kill them or write them into a spin-off, that's the way it goes, folks. It's all canon now. If you write a book or make a movie or tv show, it's your project, your creative work. If fans embrace it that's wonderful, but bowing to the demands of your fans means you're not doing it any more, and chances are it will lose that special thing that attracted fans in the first place.
There's a term for that. Sell-out. Doesn't bring positive connotations, does it?
What would I like to see in the rest of the Harry Potter books? I'd like to see Harry/Luna as a pairing. Does the fact that a few possible hints were dropped in OotP mean that she owes it to me? No. It's her books. And more to the point, I want to read the books written by JKR, not by JKR's fans, even myself.
Now, there is one situation in which I almost came close to that entitlement feeling, and that was with The X Files. I did kinda feel that the longer the show lasted, the more Chris Carter was duty-bound to make a Sculder ending. But since I left after middle of season 7, that feeling never really came to the forefront of my fan perspective of the show. In my head Mulder and Scully were soul mates, and it was just happy coincidence that CC brought them together for the ending (which I did take the time to watch, though I didn't understand a lot of it.)
The question of entitlement is a bit different though, when it comes to remaking something or transferring from a book to a film. In that case, the writer/creator isn't original, and therefore he does owe to the original work, and fans have a right to expect that the new work be a good match ot the original that they loved. Since Buffy, the XF, and the HP books are not remakes, it's a moot point.
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no subject
Date: 2003-07-20 06:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-20 06:25 pm (UTC)As far as I'm aware, the only time the word has been used on either show was Darla ironically stating that she and Angel were soulmates.
Re:
Date: 2003-07-20 06:38 pm (UTC)Speaking of, Darla is my preferred Angel ship (Cordy second.) It seems like what she and Angel had was much more mature and serious a relationship than the puppy love Angel and the too-young Buffy had.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-20 06:55 pm (UTC)No, kidding. I really can't make any judgment as I'm not a fan.
But I was wondering if you could give me the definition of "shipper" I've heard it everywhere, but can't figure out what it means.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-20 07:09 pm (UTC)No, kidding. I really can't make any judgment as I'm not a fan.
Actually, Angel's the more likely slut. Who knows how many people he's slept with in 200 years? :) More than 4, which is Buffy's record.
But I was wondering if you could give me the definition of "shipper" I've heard it everywhere, but can't figure out what it means.
Really? Well, it started out as a term for X-Files fans who thought Mulder & Scully should get together. Shipper is short for "relationship[per]." It's sort of spread to other fandoms, especially for tv shows. I haven't noticed it used much in aniem fans though. Basically a "ship" is a pairing in a book/show/movie, and a shipper is someone who follows/supports that pairing.
I, for instance am:
a Buffy/Spike shipper
a Hiiro/Relena shipper
a Vash/Meryl shipper
a Spike/Faye shipper
a Mulder/Scully shipper
a Tasuki/Miaka shipper
Re:
Date: 2003-07-20 07:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-20 07:13 pm (UTC)A 'shipper is someone who prefers a certain pairing.
I don't flame. Don't have the energy or the animus.
But I wonder why you are calling Buffy a slut? Do you mean it literally, like you think she's sexually promiscuous and nasty? Or do you mean it more generally, as the sort of thing you'd say about a person or character you simply don't like? (That would make "slut" sort of generic, the way "dude" used to refer to a young male pot-head but is now used as an interjection, like "Whoa" or "Check this out".)
I swear I am not going to get all mean and defensive. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt and buried it. I'm just curious, is all.
Re:
Date: 2003-07-20 07:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-20 07:28 pm (UTC)Seasons 1-3 were spent with her being in love with Angel, vampire (but one with a soul.) But they gave him his own spin-off show on the WB network, and besides that he was cursed so that if they ever made love he woud lose his soul turn evil again, so he left her to have a "normal relationship with some one else" for her own good. This made her bitter and unable to relate to men. She was 16-18 during that ship.
In the beginning of season 4 she was seduced and used by this guy she went to college with, who dumped her after he got sex. This did not make her feel better about guys.
From the rest of season 4 through most of season 5 she was with Riley, a class mate and an undercover secret military dude for the government. They were a happy but boring couple, and Riley was sort of her rebound guy after losign Angel. He eventually cheated on her because wasn't really opening herself up to him emotionally (hold-over from the Angel-angst), and they broke up.
The very end of season 5 through the beginning of season 7 she was off and on with Spike, soulless vampire. They had lots and LOTS of sex. He was in love with her from season 5 on (he deliberately got his human soul back in season 6 finale so she could love him), but she wasn't really in love with him until season 7, after which the show finally ended.
Re:
Date: 2003-07-20 10:42 pm (UTC)No, I'm kidding. But you did forget one thing.
She had a boyfriend in the movie, too. I know, I know. Wrong Buffy, wrong vampires.
Re:
Date: 2003-07-21 12:56 am (UTC)Awwww... you should. S'a good show. OVer now, though. You'd have to watch it on FX.
She had a boyfriend in the movie, too. I know, I know. Wrong Buffy, wrong vampires.
Ahhaaaahhaaaa.... I remember him. He was cuuuuute. In a loser-skater-musician way, but cute still.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-21 12:33 am (UTC)I didn't take offense, and I know you were joking around. But remind me not to tell you anything about my history. I've forgotten the names of more boyfriends than Buffy's ever had! I am so going to hell....
Re:
Date: 2003-07-21 12:53 am (UTC)Re:
Date: 2003-07-22 02:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-07-20 08:27 pm (UTC)but the spuffy people are mostly happy because they can say, "oh spikey, you lied to make her feel better."
either way, happy fans, right? or slightly dissatisfied fans all around. whatever. it was their ending to do with as they pleased.
and picking a specific writer to blame for your fave character not turning out the way YOU wanted? how sad is that? if ya don't like it, write a fanfic.
anyway... uh... to sum up... i agree.
Re:
Date: 2003-07-20 09:20 pm (UTC)but the spuffy people are mostly happy because they can say, "oh spikey, you lied to make her feel better."
Something for everyone. In the episode they basically confirmed B/A, B/S, and the likelihood of S/A.
and picking a specific writer to blame for your fave character not turning out the way YOU wanted? how sad is that?
Actually, I did have Marty Noxon issues (so I'm not totally out of blame), but I got over it quite a while ago. Especially since I adored season 7 and went through the whole year in shippy heaven. But still, even if you don't like what they give you, you still accept it, right-- I mean happens happens, right? People have a totla right to be bitter, but t's the entitlement that confuses me. If you can't accept, why bother? Or write fanfic, as you so right put. ;) I did that too, when they killed my boy (that's on the Fanfic link on the side of my journal, if you're curious one day).
anyway... uh... to sum up... i agree.
Jolly good. Cookie? ::holds up box::
Words of Wisdom
Date: 2003-07-21 03:03 am (UTC)Re: Words of Wisdom
Date: 2003-07-21 03:15 am (UTC)Yes, you can say that. It's a bug up many decent people's butts, I expect. ;)
Everything else - characters, storylines, deaths and the like - is entirely up to the creator.
All I have to do is think what if someone tried to tell me how to write my stuff? -- and I mentally take three steps backward and make a warding-off-evil sign. Humbles me pretty quick.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-22 10:47 am (UTC)The creator can create for themselvs all they want but in the case of televison - in particular - it's the attention of the viewers and fanbase that makes or breaks a creator's or production comapanies popularity, longevity and over all success in the business. It's a two way street. Fans gotta respect and stand by the creator, sure. But the creator has to respect its fan base in turn, just as you said about politeness etc.
Look at Firefly and its demise. I sincerely doubt that Firefly's fall, was comepletely the fault of evil corporate conglmerates. There's no doubt in my mind that the shows lack of popularity had a great deal to do with the dissatisfaction of a large number of the ME fan base still reeling from season 6 of BtVS. We ain't all Joss Worshippers. And just because a series has Joss Whedon and ME stamped on it doesn't mean that it's going to be a screaming succes.
Look at Stephen King, one of my favorite authors of all time. I truly admire and enjoy his work, but lets face it, the Stephen King Golden Seal doesn't necessarily mean that every one of his publications is worthy of a Pulitzer. Although many of his flops have managed to stay afloat on the Best Seller list because of his popularity.
Going back to Firefly, you have a fan base that is very loyal to a creator and a production company. However, the disastisfied group was vocal in their disappointment and I'm sure put off with having to deal with another ME "debachery" so soon, on top of lingering resentment. Not too mention the patronizing and obstuse remarks that were thrown at certain groups of the fan base (David Fury etc). One cannot deny that this, in addition to possible half-hearted support from FOX, had a significant impact on current viewer interest in watching a new ME production. And I saw Firefly and wasn't all that impressed frankly.
With literature, it's a little different, as I explained with Stephen King and just as you said about transferring printed media to film. TV - is a crap shoot and the last thing you want to do is piss off a significant portion of your fan base or put off your demographic.
no subject
Date: 2003-07-22 11:28 am (UTC)In the case of Firefly, I honestly don't think having the entire Buffy/Angel fanbase would have been enough even if people hadn't been burned by season 6, because we're not that big a fanbase in tv terms. For myself, I saw all of Firefly that came out and I liked it a lot, especially as it got further and further. But there were some whacked network decisions surrounding its release that made you wonder if they were trying to handicap their own new show, or were just inept at marketing.