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Sep. 18th, 2003 08:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlockI found this recently at fictionalley.org. It talks about Harry Potter fandom, but the idea could apply to many fandoms. Here is the idea, and after it my reponse
Treaty for Eventual Sane Disengagement of the Debate
Many of us may be subconsciously taking it for granted: Book seven eventually comes out, and there's no option of new canon turning things around; those who had got it right rejoice, those who were wrong about the eventual ship all along grumble and grunt but admit defeat. The eternal argument becomes nothing more than a memory, and we all get on with our lives.
But the most likely outcome when it does happen is most certainly far, far away from that. I've recently come across a thread in a forum (outside FA) which asked the members whether they think the "wars" will be over once the series is all out. The response was overwhelmingly a "no". Not because those who answered were hopelessly enthusiastic to continue the debate into a state of even greater pointlessness than it already suffers from, but because they were all completely sure that there will always be others- from both sides- willing to do that.
Nobody from either side is willing to give much thought to what turning out to be wrong- after so powerfully investing themselves in the issue- would be like, half because we'd rather keep this horrendous scenario off of our minds and half because we're all so sure we're right we see no point in even considering it. But the problem is, somebody is going to turn out to have terribly misinterpreted things, and seeing as nobody is aware of the possible implications of their actions in case it turns out to be them- and even in case it turns out not to be them- we are currently, as I see it, on a sure, safe path to the continuation of the question of whether it's Harry and Hermione or Ron and Hermione to eternity, even after it'll have been answered.
Obviously not any one poster- that is to say, you, who are reading this now- can vouch for, be responsible for, or control the whole huge faction that also happens to support the same eventual outcome of the romantic aspect of the books. But you can vouch for, be responsible for and control yourself.
And controlling yourself means knowing when to admit you were wrong, to let go and to know that enough is enough.
This is not anything close to any sort of "contract". There is no way anybody could force you to actually follow what you agreed to here once Rowling has played her last card- if you post in this thread and undertake a part in the treaty, the only reason you are doing so is because you understand its importance, the severity of the situation it's trying to prevent and the difference you can make by not contributing to it.
Do not sign this under the assumption you are going to be on one side or the other. We all like to think that we have the truth- it seems self-evident from the information we do have, but there's always information we all don't have that could mean that you might find yourself on the opposite side of the right/wrong axis than you've expected. Your agreement to the statements below applies in that case as in any.
-----
In case I turn out to be right
I will not:
- Mock the other side for making a mistake,
- Brag or suggest there's something wrong with them,
- Or otherwise needlessly provoke them;
Because being an insufferable winner isn't any better than being a sore loser.
- Answer to or in any way try to refute claims against the legitimacy of my (now proven to be right) ship, or attempts to provoke me in general,
- Seek out people who I've had loaded arguments with before just to say "I told you so",
- or continue debating ship in general;
Because being right and not having to prove anything to anybody anymore will be my right, and it'll be best for both me and everybody else if I take advantage of it.
- Consider myself smarter or better than the people on the other side for being right,
- Or worse, publically express this sentiment;
Because they're not idiots, they're just people who hung onto a mistake and continually rationalised it. That's human and it has probably happened to me, too- and more than once.
I acknowledge my right to:
- Celebrate with my fellow shipmates;
Because not only did we turn out to be right, it's over now and nobody has to argue anymore.
- Avoid consciously looking for places where there's still any doubt, so I can "prove" my ship to the raving lunatics who still won't accept the truth;
Because yes, it's difficult to let go and fall into an existentialist crisis, and yes, old habits die hard, but I owe it to myself.
- Keep discussing Harry Potter in general with both those who were of the opposite ship and those who were my shipmates alike;
Because there's more to Harry Potter than ships, and maybe that'll finally be the opportunity to explore it without ship discussion randomly bursting every minute and inflammating the discussion beyond repair.
- Drop any grudges related to the debate;
Because there's no reason to feel enmity now if they've admitted they were wrong; and if they refuse to, why continue to bother with it?
- Remember the whole epic ordeal of the "ship debate", to be able to contemplate what caused it, why it went on, and maybe learn a lesson or two;
Because it all rooted back to the human psyche, and the human psyche is still around; those who do not understand history will be doomed to repeat it.
In case I turn out to be wrong
I will not:
- Attempt to provoke those who were right, claim that they or their (now validated) ship are in any way illegitimate,
- Denounce J.K. Rowling for taking the "wrong choice",
- Or in any way in general refuse to admit defeat, or try to ruin the happiness of those who turned out to be right;
Because being right may be better than being wrong, but dooming myself to eternal denial and refusing to acknowledge my mistakes it worse than both.
- In any way try to drag the former debate opposition back into debate over a question that's already been answered;
Because between "giving up the fight" and a futile fight, give me the white flag any day. The ending- no matter how much not to my liking- of anything is the chance for a new beginning. Perpetual stagnation is sinking deeper into the quicksand.
I acknowledge my right to:
- Ignore brags and insults from the opposition,
- Let my self-esteem emerge unscathed,
- And put it all in perspective;
Because when is all said and done, I just made a mistake and went with it. Big deal. I'm not the first and not the last to have that happen to them.
- Start actual, non-ship discussion with the former "enemy";
Because now that the ships are out of the way, I may be surprised to find out how much we have to talk about.
- Keep feeling that my ship was right, discuss it with other fans and write AU fics about it;
Because it's my right! My perception of Harry Potter is 50% my imagination.
- Move on, but look back on it and try to see what I got wrong.
Because I owe it to myself to let it go, but I know full well I don't want to go through this again.
In case Rowling leaves the ship question largely unanswered
I will:
- Promote general Harry Potter discussion over anything having to do with ships, and
I acknowledge my right to:
- Run for the hills screaming and never be heard from again.
Because enough is enough.
-----------------------------
I'll be the first to sign, methinks. In fact, even if this thread remains barren, is locked, or is destroyed by any sort of hazard, I am still fully committed to this treaty.
Hoping that when it ends, it ends peacefully,
-Ace
My Response
Well, this is interesting. A public call for everyone to volunatrily be be nice each other? Very liberal, very open-minded, very inspired and full of so many good intentions.
However, I have to warn you not to be disappointed if it falls into ruin.
I hope many people sign it, but I don't expect them to.
I hope they hold to their promises 2-4 years from now, but I don't expect them to.
Why?
Because fandom has a short memory, fans the shortest of all when it comes to their own internet behavior.
Because you can get people to sign as many agreements as you like to get them to rise above pettiness, and they may honestly think "I'll never do that," but they'll sign jsut because they believe themselves above such pettiness anyway, not because take the agreement itself seriously.
Because you can't honestly and successfully promise long-term future behavior unless it has to do with life, death, family, or marriage, or something of equal weight.
Because not all people are nice to others out of their own good will; some are nice to others because they fear reprimand from higher authority if they misbehave. The jerks of the world will be nice because they don't want to get kicked off, not because they promised they would.
Because it calls for a ceasing of all debate of ships provided a solution is given, which will never happen. And (in my personal opinion) shouldn't happen. Because there is no reason to stop discussion of possibilities just because one side is proven right. In the real tangible world, sure. In fiction and fiction analyzation and in fandom, no. There are a infinity of what-ifs out there that can be based on canon to the smallest detail, but challenge even the canon outcome. The simplest example is: What if they're really just too young to pick forever now, and how many people honestly marry their childhod sweethearts? It is reasonable to say that Harry and Hermione could leave Hogwarts and the books as a pairing, only for them to break up in their early twenties. That's just an arbitrary example, but it's a reasonable "what if."
Requesting that people not provoke others for being proven incorrect is reasonable, requesting the people drop all discussion of an entire aspect of fandom is not. Because fandom is as much about the fans as the canon, people can celebrate their love of characters and stories without having to lean on the canon as the be-all end-all of things. Saying Harry/Luna fans shouldn't continue to debate their ship just because Ron/Luna became canon is the equivalent to saying that slash fans should shut up too. After all, I highly doubt that any slash will be made canon. But even if it's not, that's no reason to tell the slash fans that they should shut up and not try to prove the worthiness of their pairing. They deserve thier chance at the soapbox even after the fact. It's not about canon as much as it is about how we each take the characters, and what we get from both the canon and our fellow fans, together.
Because you can't tell people not to debate, even if they already know the answer. People will discuss anyway, and any fandom survives as a community primarily because of discussion. Discussion and debate and talking with others is what fandom is all about, be it with your opponents or your fellows.
[quote]"Hoping that when it ends, it ends peacefully," [/quote]
For you the canon will mean an end to the debate, and answer to the question. For me it simply means the end of the books: the books and where I choose to take the characters in fandom are two entirely different things. And I'm ok with that.
That being said, I hope your experiment works, because I can see that you put a lot of thought and care into it. I hope that in a few years after they read the last book, the people who signed this and the people who only read it will remember the good intentions behind it, and reflect upon themselves before they speak, whether that changes their opinion or not. I don't expect it, but it would be nice.
Now, all that being said, Angel was a dick and Spike won the girl in the end. Canon. You'll still be wrong, but go ahead and argue as much as you want about it. And I encourage you never to sign anything that promises you won't, despite how clearly wrong you are. It's your right to be wrong, so don't ever sign that away. I'll defend your wrong wrong soapbox to the death, you wrong-person. :)
Treaty for Eventual Sane Disengagement of the Debate
Many of us may be subconsciously taking it for granted: Book seven eventually comes out, and there's no option of new canon turning things around; those who had got it right rejoice, those who were wrong about the eventual ship all along grumble and grunt but admit defeat. The eternal argument becomes nothing more than a memory, and we all get on with our lives.
But the most likely outcome when it does happen is most certainly far, far away from that. I've recently come across a thread in a forum (outside FA) which asked the members whether they think the "wars" will be over once the series is all out. The response was overwhelmingly a "no". Not because those who answered were hopelessly enthusiastic to continue the debate into a state of even greater pointlessness than it already suffers from, but because they were all completely sure that there will always be others- from both sides- willing to do that.
Nobody from either side is willing to give much thought to what turning out to be wrong- after so powerfully investing themselves in the issue- would be like, half because we'd rather keep this horrendous scenario off of our minds and half because we're all so sure we're right we see no point in even considering it. But the problem is, somebody is going to turn out to have terribly misinterpreted things, and seeing as nobody is aware of the possible implications of their actions in case it turns out to be them- and even in case it turns out not to be them- we are currently, as I see it, on a sure, safe path to the continuation of the question of whether it's Harry and Hermione or Ron and Hermione to eternity, even after it'll have been answered.
Obviously not any one poster- that is to say, you, who are reading this now- can vouch for, be responsible for, or control the whole huge faction that also happens to support the same eventual outcome of the romantic aspect of the books. But you can vouch for, be responsible for and control yourself.
And controlling yourself means knowing when to admit you were wrong, to let go and to know that enough is enough.
This is not anything close to any sort of "contract". There is no way anybody could force you to actually follow what you agreed to here once Rowling has played her last card- if you post in this thread and undertake a part in the treaty, the only reason you are doing so is because you understand its importance, the severity of the situation it's trying to prevent and the difference you can make by not contributing to it.
Do not sign this under the assumption you are going to be on one side or the other. We all like to think that we have the truth- it seems self-evident from the information we do have, but there's always information we all don't have that could mean that you might find yourself on the opposite side of the right/wrong axis than you've expected. Your agreement to the statements below applies in that case as in any.
-----
In case I turn out to be right
I will not:
- Mock the other side for making a mistake,
- Brag or suggest there's something wrong with them,
- Or otherwise needlessly provoke them;
Because being an insufferable winner isn't any better than being a sore loser.
- Answer to or in any way try to refute claims against the legitimacy of my (now proven to be right) ship, or attempts to provoke me in general,
- Seek out people who I've had loaded arguments with before just to say "I told you so",
- or continue debating ship in general;
Because being right and not having to prove anything to anybody anymore will be my right, and it'll be best for both me and everybody else if I take advantage of it.
- Consider myself smarter or better than the people on the other side for being right,
- Or worse, publically express this sentiment;
Because they're not idiots, they're just people who hung onto a mistake and continually rationalised it. That's human and it has probably happened to me, too- and more than once.
I acknowledge my right to:
- Celebrate with my fellow shipmates;
Because not only did we turn out to be right, it's over now and nobody has to argue anymore.
- Avoid consciously looking for places where there's still any doubt, so I can "prove" my ship to the raving lunatics who still won't accept the truth;
Because yes, it's difficult to let go and fall into an existentialist crisis, and yes, old habits die hard, but I owe it to myself.
- Keep discussing Harry Potter in general with both those who were of the opposite ship and those who were my shipmates alike;
Because there's more to Harry Potter than ships, and maybe that'll finally be the opportunity to explore it without ship discussion randomly bursting every minute and inflammating the discussion beyond repair.
- Drop any grudges related to the debate;
Because there's no reason to feel enmity now if they've admitted they were wrong; and if they refuse to, why continue to bother with it?
- Remember the whole epic ordeal of the "ship debate", to be able to contemplate what caused it, why it went on, and maybe learn a lesson or two;
Because it all rooted back to the human psyche, and the human psyche is still around; those who do not understand history will be doomed to repeat it.
In case I turn out to be wrong
I will not:
- Attempt to provoke those who were right, claim that they or their (now validated) ship are in any way illegitimate,
- Denounce J.K. Rowling for taking the "wrong choice",
- Or in any way in general refuse to admit defeat, or try to ruin the happiness of those who turned out to be right;
Because being right may be better than being wrong, but dooming myself to eternal denial and refusing to acknowledge my mistakes it worse than both.
- In any way try to drag the former debate opposition back into debate over a question that's already been answered;
Because between "giving up the fight" and a futile fight, give me the white flag any day. The ending- no matter how much not to my liking- of anything is the chance for a new beginning. Perpetual stagnation is sinking deeper into the quicksand.
I acknowledge my right to:
- Ignore brags and insults from the opposition,
- Let my self-esteem emerge unscathed,
- And put it all in perspective;
Because when is all said and done, I just made a mistake and went with it. Big deal. I'm not the first and not the last to have that happen to them.
- Start actual, non-ship discussion with the former "enemy";
Because now that the ships are out of the way, I may be surprised to find out how much we have to talk about.
- Keep feeling that my ship was right, discuss it with other fans and write AU fics about it;
Because it's my right! My perception of Harry Potter is 50% my imagination.
- Move on, but look back on it and try to see what I got wrong.
Because I owe it to myself to let it go, but I know full well I don't want to go through this again.
In case Rowling leaves the ship question largely unanswered
I will:
- Promote general Harry Potter discussion over anything having to do with ships, and
I acknowledge my right to:
- Run for the hills screaming and never be heard from again.
Because enough is enough.
-----------------------------
I'll be the first to sign, methinks. In fact, even if this thread remains barren, is locked, or is destroyed by any sort of hazard, I am still fully committed to this treaty.
Hoping that when it ends, it ends peacefully,
-Ace
My Response
Well, this is interesting. A public call for everyone to volunatrily be be nice each other? Very liberal, very open-minded, very inspired and full of so many good intentions.
However, I have to warn you not to be disappointed if it falls into ruin.
I hope many people sign it, but I don't expect them to.
I hope they hold to their promises 2-4 years from now, but I don't expect them to.
Why?
Because fandom has a short memory, fans the shortest of all when it comes to their own internet behavior.
Because you can get people to sign as many agreements as you like to get them to rise above pettiness, and they may honestly think "I'll never do that," but they'll sign jsut because they believe themselves above such pettiness anyway, not because take the agreement itself seriously.
Because you can't honestly and successfully promise long-term future behavior unless it has to do with life, death, family, or marriage, or something of equal weight.
Because not all people are nice to others out of their own good will; some are nice to others because they fear reprimand from higher authority if they misbehave. The jerks of the world will be nice because they don't want to get kicked off, not because they promised they would.
Because it calls for a ceasing of all debate of ships provided a solution is given, which will never happen. And (in my personal opinion) shouldn't happen. Because there is no reason to stop discussion of possibilities just because one side is proven right. In the real tangible world, sure. In fiction and fiction analyzation and in fandom, no. There are a infinity of what-ifs out there that can be based on canon to the smallest detail, but challenge even the canon outcome. The simplest example is: What if they're really just too young to pick forever now, and how many people honestly marry their childhod sweethearts? It is reasonable to say that Harry and Hermione could leave Hogwarts and the books as a pairing, only for them to break up in their early twenties. That's just an arbitrary example, but it's a reasonable "what if."
Requesting that people not provoke others for being proven incorrect is reasonable, requesting the people drop all discussion of an entire aspect of fandom is not. Because fandom is as much about the fans as the canon, people can celebrate their love of characters and stories without having to lean on the canon as the be-all end-all of things. Saying Harry/Luna fans shouldn't continue to debate their ship just because Ron/Luna became canon is the equivalent to saying that slash fans should shut up too. After all, I highly doubt that any slash will be made canon. But even if it's not, that's no reason to tell the slash fans that they should shut up and not try to prove the worthiness of their pairing. They deserve thier chance at the soapbox even after the fact. It's not about canon as much as it is about how we each take the characters, and what we get from both the canon and our fellow fans, together.
Because you can't tell people not to debate, even if they already know the answer. People will discuss anyway, and any fandom survives as a community primarily because of discussion. Discussion and debate and talking with others is what fandom is all about, be it with your opponents or your fellows.
[quote]"Hoping that when it ends, it ends peacefully," [/quote]
For you the canon will mean an end to the debate, and answer to the question. For me it simply means the end of the books: the books and where I choose to take the characters in fandom are two entirely different things. And I'm ok with that.
That being said, I hope your experiment works, because I can see that you put a lot of thought and care into it. I hope that in a few years after they read the last book, the people who signed this and the people who only read it will remember the good intentions behind it, and reflect upon themselves before they speak, whether that changes their opinion or not. I don't expect it, but it would be nice.
Now, all that being said, Angel was a dick and Spike won the girl in the end. Canon. You'll still be wrong, but go ahead and argue as much as you want about it. And I encourage you never to sign anything that promises you won't, despite how clearly wrong you are. It's your right to be wrong, so don't ever sign that away. I'll defend your wrong wrong soapbox to the death, you wrong-person. :)
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no subject
Date: 2003-09-18 09:45 pm (UTC)Buffy and Harry Potter fandoms, wank you crazy diamonds, wank on.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-18 10:14 pm (UTC)Not to mention the fighting that results evertime one of the movies comes out.
You're right. I forgot about the movies-- that's a whole nother realm of canon to fight over. Wank on, we will!
no subject
Date: 2003-09-18 10:17 pm (UTC)here has a much better informed definition though
:D
no subject
Date: 2003-09-18 10:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-18 09:46 pm (UTC)*giggles*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-18 10:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-19 06:07 am (UTC)Snerk. Love you.
Agree with you, as well. What the author is proposing--which seems to be that after discovering what canon is uncovered in book 7, one ship will suddenly be "wrong"--sounds like a terrible shame. Seems to me that at least through book 6, ships were purposely kept ambiguous. Supporting one ship or the other--regardless of which would eventually have canon approval was the right, intended response for readers to have. Just because one side later received a canonical thumbs-up doesn't make the other side retroactively wrong, doesn't erase whatever hints existed in canon that led people to believe and invest themselves in that "wrong" side.
Kinda like when ME condemned pre-Soul Spike fans, claiming that fans' attraction to the character was entirely based on JM's physical appearance, rather than the character's actions.
For both cases, the evidence is there, in canon, and telling people to ignore it or that they were "wrong" to see it after later events--book 7 or 'Seeing Red'--is....urg. I just ran out of steam. But you get what I'm saying. ;)
Cheers!
:)
Date: 2003-09-19 12:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-19 08:13 am (UTC)Because, in the end, the 'shipper/slash/whatever wars are the flip side of this shiny coin that's fandom with its discussions, debates, fanfic, and friendships.