brief comments post-episode, a slightly longer thought about who can get redemption and who can't

[timepiececlock]

Okay, so I got Jossed. I'm glad. I guess I'm just sensitive to my boy getting the proverbial shorter stick for no obvious reason.

I hope that was the first and last time though. We're NOT going to do that every.single.episode are we?

Other Thoughts

I love how Spike immediately asked about Buffy, and his obvious disorientation, and that she was what he first wanted to see. So many summer fics had him not wanting to see her at first, but this reaction felt more true to the character to me. This is Spike, ultimate archetype of "the lover." Of course his first clear thoughts are going to be about the person he loves, demanding for her or information about her.

Which makes me wonder... if Angel was so tight-lipped about Spike's saving the world (and from his reaction I'd guess that either Buffy or one of the others told him ALL about it) and his soul, will he be willing to help Spike try to contact Buffy now, even though he's only half in this world? Angel might not have to do anything overt, but he could certainly sabatoge or undermine Spike's efforts, since Spike essentially can't do anything without another's help. Is Angel that selfish and that controlling of things regarding the Buffy/Angel/Spike triangle? I ask, because I don't know Angel's post-Sunnyhell character that well. But I'd tentatively guess yes.

Spike/Fred? I don't think love will blossom there. Can we say human Drusilla, anyone? But I might like to see friendship, and Spike certainly chose well in asking for help. Not only did he go to the smartest one, but he went to the one most likely to sympathize with his situation.

It's weirdly deja vu-ish to see him saying the same thing he said so many times in season 7.

Angel's rant about Spike having it easy because he asked for what he got put things into an interesting perspective.

I loved Ange's crew (do they have a name, like Scooby Gang? I'll call them "the crew") 's reaction to Spike's soul and love for Buffy and his saving the world. It was the 'first reaction' that we didn't get shown on BtVS. And I could just see the little wheels turning in Wesley's hot little head.

This 'going to hell' thing? Not really a surprise (given the evil he's done in his existence), but it is sad. I'd say unfair, but I'm not sure. Well, yes, it IS kind of unfair, giving that he saved XX many more times the amount of people he's ever killed. But then again, like Buffy said in season 6, it's not about "tipping the scales." So maybe Hell is a just end for William the Bloody. Still sad though. A quiet, scary kind of sad. Sad for Angel too. Because if what Spike did wasn't enough to save him from hell, then it's not likely that anything Angel could ever do would save -him- either. Even if Angel did what Buffy did in season 5 and saved all dimensions, all universes, EVERYWHERE-- if it's not about tipping the scales, then it's not about tipping the scales.

Then what would it take-- a state of mind? He repents, and is thus saved? Well, Spike repented, and he gave penitence, and when he gave his sacrifice he did it for the right reasons-- not only love of Buffy, but because it was the right thing to do. Is the word 'philanthropic', or 'altruistic' ? Or maybe 'jesusy', I don't know. But Spike died in the right way doing the right thing for all the right reasons, with the right state of mind and heart, or at least the idea of 'right' in the Judeo-Christian sense.

And remember, as an evil vampire, Spike is "second only to Angel." Second.to.Angel. In.evilness.

So if Spike is doomed to Hell, how can Angel ever be redeemed?


And while we're at it, what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen African swallow?

Also, lordshiva, that "free will" you talked about? Way to prophecize, chica.

EDIT:

"http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary" Describes altruism as: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others.

I think that's an ok description for Spike's sacrifice in Chosen. "jesusy" is still in the running though.

Comments

[wickedprincess3.livejournal.com]

Is Angel that selfish and that controlling of things regarding the Buffy/Angel/Spike triangle?
He told Spike she wasn't his or Spike's, the only time we've seen Angel all that hung up on Buffy since season 1 ats was when he guested on Btvs, since then it's been Cordy. So I don't think he'd actively work to keep them apart.

So if Spike is doomed to Hell, how can Angel ever be redeemed?
I think that may be kinda the point, Angel has been realizing more and more since (I think ats s2 though maybe earlier) that there may be no point to what he's doing, now with Spike around, someone that truly doesn't give fuck all about redemption, I think we're gonna see that more and more. The scales never tip back, in the Jossverse there's never really hope. I don't know about shanshus and such and this is totally not coming from spoilers, but I believe the shanshu is meant to be a monkeys paw, it's not "reward" because in the end there is no reward for Spike or Angel. Angel may turn human then only to die as soon as he does or something (I don't know but I don't think it would ever be a good thing which is why I'm always surprised by people wanting either of them to shanshu) why do I think that? Cause it was originally intended for Angel and Angel will never be happy, he can't be.

err I rambled sorry :(

[just-eunice.livejournal.com]

Because if what Spike did wasn't enough to save him from hell, then it's not likely that anything Angel could ever do would save -him- either. Even if Angel did what Buffy did in season 5 and saved all dimensions, all universes, EVERYWHERE-- if it's not about tipping the scales, then it's not about tipping the scales.

Now you're getting it. That's exactly what it is. How can Angel ever be redeemed? He can't. Neither can Spike. It's a question they never really addressed much on Buffy, but one which is front and center on Angel...and the answer pretty much always comes back the same. So the new question is...what do you do when there isn't anything you can do?

Welcome to the screwed up world of swirly grey that is Angel. :-)

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

Well, the way I would interpret "it's not about tipping the scales" is that it's not about numbers in the sense that the atonement is finite and one to one. That was what Whistler or Doyle or whoever warned Angel against early on, that being heroic didn't excuse snacking. That was Faith's mistake, that she thought saving enough people meant she didn't have to care about killing a couple.

But I agree about dying the right way. It's not just that on the numbers Spike dying saved everybody, although you can certainly argue numbers that way. It's the intent. And the way I saw it, Spike's death meant he was done. If he'd lived another hundred years, he could have spent another hundred years saving lives and fighting evil and still not have been done – until he was dead or somehow achieved grace, which gets into religious territory I'm not really comfortable discussing. Once he's dead, he's done, by definition. And I think a fair evaluation wouldn't send him to hell.

Why? Well, for one thing, is he to be punished for trying to be a better person? Did he fill with light and joy and willingly die to save the world too soon? It not being a scorecard should work both ways and not insist that he spend as many years atoning as he did being evil.

Spike may go on about how he's not trying to atone, but he has to truly care, truly be drawn to goodness, or he wouldn't have been drawn to Buffy, wouldn't have fought so hard to change. I'm not sure what canon is on where vamps go – ok, hell – but is it really hellacious for them, considering they are demons? Isn't that their natural habitat? A Christian reading would suppose that demons are exiled angels, and so they are in hell, in a way... but not exactly burning there as humans do. (Hell being defined as distance from God for demons.) Whereas we know souled demons do suffer in hell, as Angel did. So it's plausible that Spike's punishment is worse for having reformed – and that doesn't seem fair.

On the other hand, a Christian reading would also lend itself to the idea that demons cannot be redeemed. Their fall was permanent. So maybe only Angel gets to be redeemed, because he's Special and Chosen and someone else decided. In which case it's not merit but fate. Which means that Spike is just screwed, as usual.

Oh, and that, "I'm more unlucky because you chose your soul" thing? Total bullshit... and sorta interesting, as Angelus' rage at being saddled with a soul is really close to the surface here.

[elz.livejournal.com]

Is Angel that selfish and that controlling of things regarding the Buffy/Angel/Spike triangle?

Angel didn't know there was a Buffy/Angel/Spike triangle until Chosen. However, when he was interested in Cordelia and she chose someone else, he was a little snippy but generally not too bad. I think what we're seeing now are Spike issues rather than Buffy issues, but I'm not sure how far those extend, and Angel's not in the best place right now.

And Angel's crew is generally known as the Fang Gang or Angel Investigations (AI), or at TWOP, the Ministers of Grace or MoG (Hamlet pun). :)

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

Well, as I saw the Mohra ep rerun today, I don't think Angel as much wants to be human, as he wants to be human and have that mean something. He wants it to mean he's forgiven.

As for Spike, I think he'd hate being human, at least initially, which would be one very good reason to let him shanshu. I for one sorta wanted him to shanshu because I figured the requirements had been met: madness, torture, trials, friendlessness, deciding factor in good vs. evil battle. (Why else was the First trying so hard to recruit him?) It would surprise him, throw Angel for a loop, open up whole new character issues... it would be neat. :)

caia

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what canon is on where vamps go – ok, hell – but is it really hellacious for them, considering they are demons? Isn't that their natural habitat?

I tried to voice my extraordinarily confused thoughts on this elsewhere. But, really, I can’t imagine ‘hell’ (or hell deminsions) being all that bad from a demon perspective. Their likes, loves, desires etc are geared differently to humans, and worlds filled with chaos, violence and destruction may not necessarily be a ‘punnishment’ in any traditional sense, especially if there is an opportunity to ‘rise in the ranks’ and start dishing out the cruelty to others. For Angelus, I imagine a heaven in which are was peaceful and he got to feel the love would probably be significantly more horrifying! But then, I am assuming that we’re not talking about a conception of hell were you just burn – no one could really like that.

So it's plausible that Spike's punishment is worse for having reformed – and that doesn't seem fair.

Yeah, exactly my concern. And the situation becomes even worse if you subscribe to the pure “fundy” view that vampires simply can not change, and can not be motivated by anything but selfishness and evil. Under that reasoning, Spike’s being punnished for something he never had a choice in, being held morally accountable for actions he could not possibly have truly understood where wrong. These are the same folks who seem to be cheering Spike’s revelation that he’s going to hell, which is just – guh. Okay, stopping now.

I do think there are lots of possible explanations for the hell thing, including a nice theory from asta77 that Spike’s merely mistaken. I’ll wait and see.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Ah. Now, see that's a take on the show that I never got from the promos. Every ad for Angel has always been "he is trying to be redeemed," and the stuff about Shanshu that I learned as a Buffy fan (though I did see that one episode when they read the scroll and find that prophecy) has led me to think that redemption is the whole point. But if it's about being redeemed for the sake of being a good person in the now REGARDLESS of whether you are rewarded/forgiven in the end, well that's a bit different. Better, maybe, if a little more sad. At least in regards to Angel. Kinda irks me about Spike though. Since so much of what he's done has been choice rather than imposition, then it irks me that he could be essentially punished for being good. And I'm still being irked by the question of how responsible the man is for the demon's actions. Angel seems to hold himself responsible but simultaneously want everyone else to think Angelus is a different person and therefore Ange is not responsible (at least that's what I got from the episodes I watched in season 4 with Angelus and Faith and stuff.) Spike doesn't seem to care or bother to differenciate himself from himself at all, and thus neither does anyone else (including Angel), and so he still gets held responsible while Angel doesn't. That irks me. I want to see that played out in the future.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

ooh... links! Thanks.

These are the same folks who seem to be cheering Spike’s revelation that he’s going to hell, which is just – guh.

Cheering... like, they're happy? Or they approve that it's time he face the music in a manly way?

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

Interesting theory indeed. And furthermore, these are clearly not the usual circumstances, what with the amulet of W&H origin, the ghost (sorta) thing, etc. It's entirely possible that believing he's going to hell was a built in part of the magic that brought him back, or even the amulet itself, if W&H were trying to use it on Angel to gain leverage over him.

As for hell being where you burn... maybe I'm overly influenced by Dr. Faustus... but even if hell is where humans burn, it's kinda like the demons are running the show overall... But then, a Christian viewpoint doesn't really work in the Buffyverse, since there are countless "heaven" and "hell" dimensions, the latter of which it seems living people can exist in... i.e., these are travel destinations as much as they are, y'know, afterlife rewards.

Ok, the fundy viewpoint makes no sense to me. Especially with the Spike-choosing-his-soul thing. If they're right, then Spike's punishment couldn't be for actions he had no control over... so it has to be because he is corrupt in himself. And if that is so... then how the heck is any vampire, even the ones with the souls, ever to escape eternal damnation?

People are cheering over Spike going to hell? What the – ?

You know, it's possible bringing Spike onto AtS was a mistake. The range of viewpoints held with such vehemence is such that any compromise path they walk will please no one and piss off everyone. I love Spike, but I'm going with my "the real Spike stayed dead" stance.

caia

[tiashome.livejournal.com]

Goodness, I had some of the very same thoughts you put down here ...

I love how Spike immediately asked about Buffy, and his obvious disorientation, and that she was what he first wanted to see. So many summer fics had him not wanting to see her at first, but this reaction felt more true to the character to me. This is Spike, ultimate archetype of "the lover." Of course his first clear thoughts are going to be about the person he loves, demanding for her or information about her.
You nailed it ... Spike would definitely ask about Buffy first off -- find out if she was alright, want to see her (I assume that's where he was going when he tried, but failed, to leave the LA city limits.)

So maybe Hell is a just end for William the Bloody. Still sad though. A quiet, scary kind of sad. Sad for Angel too. Because if what Spike did wasn't enough to save him from hell, then it's not likely that anything Angel could ever do would save -him- either. Even if Angel did what Buffy did in season 5 and saved all dimensions, all universes, EVERYWHERE-- if it's not about tipping the scales, then it's not about tipping the scales.
===
And remember, as an evil vampire, Spike is "second only to Angel." Second.to.Angel. In.evilness.

So if Spike is doomed to Hell, how can Angel ever be redeemed?
This makes me want to cry ... but you are so right (great discussions in the other comments to your post too). The last scene with Fred really struck me ... Spike is so very scared of what he'll face when he goes. I can't wait to see if the writers explore whether Spike and Angel try to figure out what redemption really means for them or accept that the good they do here counts for nothing in the hereafter.

[evemac.livejournal.com]

I have a much simpler outlook on all this [though the discussion in the comments is very intriguing]:

The amulet is what's pulling him into "hell". [Remember, Buffy thought she was in "heaven," which was later defined as one of many heavenly dimensions.] The amulet is a product of Wolfram & Hart. Therefore, W&H designed this to suck whichever champion that wore it into one of their hell dimensions. Technically, Pylea [Lorne's home dimension that they visited in S2] is a hell dimension, and W&H had contacts in it, not to mention power over it.

So I think his predicament is a result of the amulet, not his actions or existence as a vampire.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

::raises eyebrows:: That is an interesting thought. I'm not quite sold on it, but it definitely has merits. Even Wesley reaffirmed in this episode that they got the amulet from W&H.

which was later defined as one of many heavenly dimensions.

I don't remember that. ?

[evemac.livejournal.com]

which was later defined as one of many heavenly dimensions.

I don't remember that. ?

From 6.08 "Tabula Rasa":

TARA: It's totally not stupid to wonder what it was like for Buffy. But it could have been any one of a zillion heavenly dimensions. All we know is that ... it was a good place and she was happy there.

And from 4.22 "Home":

LILAH
While you've been namby-pambying around for the past 90 seconds, 6 innocent people have died. Oh, but don't worry. There's always 6,000 more just around the corner or up the coast. (hands Angel a file)

ANGEL
(opens the file, reads) Sunnydale. (takes out an amulet from the file)

LILAH
That nifty, little bauble comes with the file. Apparently, it's crucial for some kind of final battle. Guess they're in short supply up Sunnydale way. A bit gauche for my taste, but, hey, not a slayer.

So Wolfram and Hart, by way of Lilah, gave the amulet to Angel. They may have known that it would end up with Spike, or they may have assumed that Angel would keep it. Either way, whatever is happening to Spike is connected to the amulet. He IS connected to the amulet. He can't leave LA because that's where the amulet is. And ever so slowly, it's sucking him down.

And keep in mind, I'm not spoiled for this season, so I know just about as much as you do. This is just my theory and I could be incredibly wrong. ;)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the TR bit. I'd forgotten.

I did get to watch Home. I was actually kinda baffled by watching Angel go from Home to Chosen, and completely change his attitude. He just killed his own son and the person he loves is in a coma and he'd moping because his ex is doing someone he disapproves of.