brief comments post-episode, a slightly longer thought about who can get redemption and who can't

[timepiececlock]

Okay, so I got Jossed. I'm glad. I guess I'm just sensitive to my boy getting the proverbial shorter stick for no obvious reason.

I hope that was the first and last time though. We're NOT going to do that every.single.episode are we?

Other Thoughts

I love how Spike immediately asked about Buffy, and his obvious disorientation, and that she was what he first wanted to see. So many summer fics had him not wanting to see her at first, but this reaction felt more true to the character to me. This is Spike, ultimate archetype of "the lover." Of course his first clear thoughts are going to be about the person he loves, demanding for her or information about her.

Which makes me wonder... if Angel was so tight-lipped about Spike's saving the world (and from his reaction I'd guess that either Buffy or one of the others told him ALL about it) and his soul, will he be willing to help Spike try to contact Buffy now, even though he's only half in this world? Angel might not have to do anything overt, but he could certainly sabatoge or undermine Spike's efforts, since Spike essentially can't do anything without another's help. Is Angel that selfish and that controlling of things regarding the Buffy/Angel/Spike triangle? I ask, because I don't know Angel's post-Sunnyhell character that well. But I'd tentatively guess yes.

Spike/Fred? I don't think love will blossom there. Can we say human Drusilla, anyone? But I might like to see friendship, and Spike certainly chose well in asking for help. Not only did he go to the smartest one, but he went to the one most likely to sympathize with his situation.

It's weirdly deja vu-ish to see him saying the same thing he said so many times in season 7.

Angel's rant about Spike having it easy because he asked for what he got put things into an interesting perspective.

I loved Ange's crew (do they have a name, like Scooby Gang? I'll call them "the crew") 's reaction to Spike's soul and love for Buffy and his saving the world. It was the 'first reaction' that we didn't get shown on BtVS. And I could just see the little wheels turning in Wesley's hot little head.

This 'going to hell' thing? Not really a surprise (given the evil he's done in his existence), but it is sad. I'd say unfair, but I'm not sure. Well, yes, it IS kind of unfair, giving that he saved XX many more times the amount of people he's ever killed. But then again, like Buffy said in season 6, it's not about "tipping the scales." So maybe Hell is a just end for William the Bloody. Still sad though. A quiet, scary kind of sad. Sad for Angel too. Because if what Spike did wasn't enough to save him from hell, then it's not likely that anything Angel could ever do would save -him- either. Even if Angel did what Buffy did in season 5 and saved all dimensions, all universes, EVERYWHERE-- if it's not about tipping the scales, then it's not about tipping the scales.

Then what would it take-- a state of mind? He repents, and is thus saved? Well, Spike repented, and he gave penitence, and when he gave his sacrifice he did it for the right reasons-- not only love of Buffy, but because it was the right thing to do. Is the word 'philanthropic', or 'altruistic' ? Or maybe 'jesusy', I don't know. But Spike died in the right way doing the right thing for all the right reasons, with the right state of mind and heart, or at least the idea of 'right' in the Judeo-Christian sense.

And remember, as an evil vampire, Spike is "second only to Angel." Second.to.Angel. In.evilness.

So if Spike is doomed to Hell, how can Angel ever be redeemed?


And while we're at it, what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen African swallow?

Also, lordshiva, that "free will" you talked about? Way to prophecize, chica.

EDIT:

"http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary" Describes altruism as: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others.

I think that's an ok description for Spike's sacrifice in Chosen. "jesusy" is still in the running though.

Comments

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

Well, the way I would interpret "it's not about tipping the scales" is that it's not about numbers in the sense that the atonement is finite and one to one. That was what Whistler or Doyle or whoever warned Angel against early on, that being heroic didn't excuse snacking. That was Faith's mistake, that she thought saving enough people meant she didn't have to care about killing a couple.

But I agree about dying the right way. It's not just that on the numbers Spike dying saved everybody, although you can certainly argue numbers that way. It's the intent. And the way I saw it, Spike's death meant he was done. If he'd lived another hundred years, he could have spent another hundred years saving lives and fighting evil and still not have been done – until he was dead or somehow achieved grace, which gets into religious territory I'm not really comfortable discussing. Once he's dead, he's done, by definition. And I think a fair evaluation wouldn't send him to hell.

Why? Well, for one thing, is he to be punished for trying to be a better person? Did he fill with light and joy and willingly die to save the world too soon? It not being a scorecard should work both ways and not insist that he spend as many years atoning as he did being evil.

Spike may go on about how he's not trying to atone, but he has to truly care, truly be drawn to goodness, or he wouldn't have been drawn to Buffy, wouldn't have fought so hard to change. I'm not sure what canon is on where vamps go – ok, hell – but is it really hellacious for them, considering they are demons? Isn't that their natural habitat? A Christian reading would suppose that demons are exiled angels, and so they are in hell, in a way... but not exactly burning there as humans do. (Hell being defined as distance from God for demons.) Whereas we know souled demons do suffer in hell, as Angel did. So it's plausible that Spike's punishment is worse for having reformed – and that doesn't seem fair.

On the other hand, a Christian reading would also lend itself to the idea that demons cannot be redeemed. Their fall was permanent. So maybe only Angel gets to be redeemed, because he's Special and Chosen and someone else decided. In which case it's not merit but fate. Which means that Spike is just screwed, as usual.

Oh, and that, "I'm more unlucky because you chose your soul" thing? Total bullshit... and sorta interesting, as Angelus' rage at being saddled with a soul is really close to the surface here.

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what canon is on where vamps go – ok, hell – but is it really hellacious for them, considering they are demons? Isn't that their natural habitat?

I tried to voice my extraordinarily confused thoughts on this elsewhere. But, really, I can’t imagine ‘hell’ (or hell deminsions) being all that bad from a demon perspective. Their likes, loves, desires etc are geared differently to humans, and worlds filled with chaos, violence and destruction may not necessarily be a ‘punnishment’ in any traditional sense, especially if there is an opportunity to ‘rise in the ranks’ and start dishing out the cruelty to others. For Angelus, I imagine a heaven in which are was peaceful and he got to feel the love would probably be significantly more horrifying! But then, I am assuming that we’re not talking about a conception of hell were you just burn – no one could really like that.

So it's plausible that Spike's punishment is worse for having reformed – and that doesn't seem fair.

Yeah, exactly my concern. And the situation becomes even worse if you subscribe to the pure “fundy” view that vampires simply can not change, and can not be motivated by anything but selfishness and evil. Under that reasoning, Spike’s being punnished for something he never had a choice in, being held morally accountable for actions he could not possibly have truly understood where wrong. These are the same folks who seem to be cheering Spike’s revelation that he’s going to hell, which is just – guh. Okay, stopping now.

I do think there are lots of possible explanations for the hell thing, including a nice theory from asta77 that Spike’s merely mistaken. I’ll wait and see.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

ooh... links! Thanks.

These are the same folks who seem to be cheering Spike’s revelation that he’s going to hell, which is just – guh.

Cheering... like, they're happy? Or they approve that it's time he face the music in a manly way?

[thisficklemob.livejournal.com]

Interesting theory indeed. And furthermore, these are clearly not the usual circumstances, what with the amulet of W&H origin, the ghost (sorta) thing, etc. It's entirely possible that believing he's going to hell was a built in part of the magic that brought him back, or even the amulet itself, if W&H were trying to use it on Angel to gain leverage over him.

As for hell being where you burn... maybe I'm overly influenced by Dr. Faustus... but even if hell is where humans burn, it's kinda like the demons are running the show overall... But then, a Christian viewpoint doesn't really work in the Buffyverse, since there are countless "heaven" and "hell" dimensions, the latter of which it seems living people can exist in... i.e., these are travel destinations as much as they are, y'know, afterlife rewards.

Ok, the fundy viewpoint makes no sense to me. Especially with the Spike-choosing-his-soul thing. If they're right, then Spike's punishment couldn't be for actions he had no control over... so it has to be because he is corrupt in himself. And if that is so... then how the heck is any vampire, even the ones with the souls, ever to escape eternal damnation?

People are cheering over Spike going to hell? What the – ?

You know, it's possible bringing Spike onto AtS was a mistake. The range of viewpoints held with such vehemence is such that any compromise path they walk will please no one and piss off everyone. I love Spike, but I'm going with my "the real Spike stayed dead" stance.

caia