Ten Unpopular Opinions
Nov. 23rd, 2003 10:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlockI'm going to try this "Ten Unpopular Opinions About Fandom Thing." Though many are more controversial than strictly unpopular. And some are very popular in places, very unpopular in others.
And I'm going to borrow a couple of ones from![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
buffyx, because we have a lot of similar thoughts on the subject. I'll mark those with quotes.
1. I hate the Buffy/Angel relationship like a death knell. "I’d rather gouge my eyes out with a fork than ever see them onscreen together again." For reasons a hundred others have mentioned better than me, and NOT because "Spike si so much better than Angel." While of course he is, that's not the reason Buffy/Angel sucks. Take Spike out of the picture, I'd still never want to see Buffy/Angel again.
2. I am a Spike redeptionist. "I fell in love with the character because he had no real motivation other than love, no real support, and went against all of destiny and his actions pretty much said 'fuck fate, and fuck it in the ass with a rake.'" Exactly that. And more. How can you not adore a character who's motivational character purpose is "to love someone" ? And how can you fight against the overwhelmingly romantic idea that love can save the worst, most evil creatuers imaginable, and transform them into greatness? That love is the greatest redeemer, and the very best reason a person can have to change? To me, that's an irrisistable storyline. After all, once you love one person, you learn to love others. And plus, I'm romantic. And nothing's more appealing to me than a character like Spike, whose very existance is based on the archetype of a romantic. I've never seen a character quite like his on tv... usually romance is also tied up in duty, as it is with Buffy. But Spike doesn't live for being a good person--- Spike lives for love. Which leads him to being a good person, to WANTING to be more than he is. All he wants is to be loved.
"Things base and vile, holding no quantity
Love can transpose to form and dignity."
Shakespeare said that. Spike as a character embodies it. Redemption was the best place to take Spike's character.
3. I really think that Spike and Buffy deserve each other, and deserve that happiness more than any other possible romantic pairings on the show deserve happiness. I think that while both live they can only find it in each other, and I think that the only way to do justice to either character when the Buffyverse storyline ends is to allow them to be together, to at least have the chance to TRY doing it right-- they'd only just begun that when Chosen happened. Because I think they were in love, and the thing I hate about the idea of them *not* getting together is that both are denied that happiness. I hate the idea that both characters do such great things, and endure such great things, and go through all that shit and FINALLY find each other in the end and are in love and hope for the future, only to be punished for it and denied the chance to be together. If Spike had died permanently it'd be different, but the fact is he's still "alive," and to deny both characters that simple happiness after so much shit is just not cool. I hate the message that sends, that you can do everything for love, and win all the battles, and still be punished. That you can do everything duty demands, make every sacrifice, win all the battles, and still be punished. To me, that punishing hopelessness goes against everything thematically central to Buffy The Vampire Slayer. The message of Angel is almost exactly that though--- how to continue on and do right while acknowledging the hopelessness. Spike, while he may live a season on AtS (I can't imagine it being more than that), remains a BTVS character, and his whole redemption arc fits better onto that show than it ever will on AtS, so I expect him to drift off that show and, in canon, back to Buffy's circle. Why punish the two of them? While both characters "live," for god's sakes let them have that small happiness with each other. Dragging it out otherwise just feels like a plot device cop-out.
4. "Because Anya, Tara and Spike were the outsiders, I identified with them a hundred times more, and loved them more for it." I find it hard to really get into Willow as a character, or Xander, though I had my moments of liking them well. After Buffy and Spike, Anya was my favorite character.
5. I don't think Dawn's sentiments during season six made her a whiny brat. I like Dawn. I've always liked Dawn. I often felt she was behaving exactly as someone her age and situation ought to be expected to behave, often better. I think she's cool, and clever, and she had a lot to rightfully yell and complain about.
6. "I loved Xander and Anya's relationship," but felt hard to sympathize with Xander when he fucked it up. But loved that she was still his partner, still his choice, as the show closed.
7. (I'm taking the whole thing frombuffyx for this one) "I don’t comment on slash a lot, mostly because I feel that people should be allowed to write whatever they feel like writing, be that slash, incest, bestiality, rapefic, whatever kink they have. Personally I don’t read much slash; just a personal preference, though if it’s the right author and/or pairing (I’m partial to Spike/Angel), I might read it. So, if you slash, more power to you. But don’t go parading around acting like you’re somehow championing for gay rights by writing about pretty boys fucking, and think that somehow makes you more progressive or advanced than the rest of us who don‘t care for it much, and think that we’re all just homophobic freaks. Hopefully none of the above applies to any of you guys. And yes, slash is a trend (and I'm talking about BtVS/AtS fandom here). Not necessarily a “fad,” per say, but lately it’s become much more popular than it used to be, so I’d call that a trend. That isn’t a bad thing. For those who are really, really anti-slash-- feel free to express your opinions, but if you’re constantly making “oh my god gay sex is totally ICKY” comments, not just on your journal but others, and making icons that convey the same thing, be prepared to back your views up. Especially if you’re fucktarded enough to tell people who slash that they should stop writing just because you say so." With the additional comment of: I prefer vidslash to ficslash any day of the week. If slash existed only in vids, sisabet would have had me as her eternal servant and slash fanatic at least a year ago.
8. Romantic Giles fic bores me. Giles sexfic bores me. Especially Ganya fic... unless its parody.
9. I really don't think that Spike or Xander after season 3 would touch each other sexually with a fifty foot pole and blinders on. Not because Spike or Xander have a particular sexual preference (that's your judgement) but because they really can't abide each other. And not in a way that leads to "enemies attract" sex like Buffy and Spike, or pity sex. I just don't think either could bare to have intimate physical contact of any form. The best they do is tolerate each other, and both do that for Buffy. In fact I'd say Spike is more believably in-character to sleep with ANYONE of the Buffy cast, male or female, than have sexual relations with Xander.
Unless, you know, it's season 4 and they're both conmpletley high on drugged up food and have a three-way with a luscious fat girl and thus not totally in control of their faculties... best asklordshiva about that one. Or, if i'ts like in mustangsally78's story and Spike has to suck Xander's dick to distract Xander from raping Buffy while having his system pumped full of druggy shit from the Knight Rider car... but in both of those instances, there's drugs involved.
10. Darla was Angel's OneTruLuv.
(I'm cheating with one more. The big one.)
11. I think the fact that Spike began his journey to redemption by choice and by love makes him more prepared for redemption than Angel, and more deserving of it. It makes him more of a hero, internally. Angel does the hero thing, and does it well most of the time, but he still can't change himself to be better. Self-change fundamental to redemption, in my opinion. He's still got the unconquered evil inside. Until he does that, he'll always be behind Spike in the race to worthiness.
And I'm going to borrow a couple of ones from
buffyx, because we have a lot of similar thoughts on the subject. I'll mark those with quotes.1. I hate the Buffy/Angel relationship like a death knell. "I’d rather gouge my eyes out with a fork than ever see them onscreen together again." For reasons a hundred others have mentioned better than me, and NOT because "Spike si so much better than Angel." While of course he is, that's not the reason Buffy/Angel sucks. Take Spike out of the picture, I'd still never want to see Buffy/Angel again.
2. I am a Spike redeptionist. "I fell in love with the character because he had no real motivation other than love, no real support, and went against all of destiny and his actions pretty much said 'fuck fate, and fuck it in the ass with a rake.'" Exactly that. And more. How can you not adore a character who's motivational character purpose is "to love someone" ? And how can you fight against the overwhelmingly romantic idea that love can save the worst, most evil creatuers imaginable, and transform them into greatness? That love is the greatest redeemer, and the very best reason a person can have to change? To me, that's an irrisistable storyline. After all, once you love one person, you learn to love others. And plus, I'm romantic. And nothing's more appealing to me than a character like Spike, whose very existance is based on the archetype of a romantic. I've never seen a character quite like his on tv... usually romance is also tied up in duty, as it is with Buffy. But Spike doesn't live for being a good person--- Spike lives for love. Which leads him to being a good person, to WANTING to be more than he is. All he wants is to be loved.
"Things base and vile, holding no quantity
Love can transpose to form and dignity."
Shakespeare said that. Spike as a character embodies it. Redemption was the best place to take Spike's character.
3. I really think that Spike and Buffy deserve each other, and deserve that happiness more than any other possible romantic pairings on the show deserve happiness. I think that while both live they can only find it in each other, and I think that the only way to do justice to either character when the Buffyverse storyline ends is to allow them to be together, to at least have the chance to TRY doing it right-- they'd only just begun that when Chosen happened. Because I think they were in love, and the thing I hate about the idea of them *not* getting together is that both are denied that happiness. I hate the idea that both characters do such great things, and endure such great things, and go through all that shit and FINALLY find each other in the end and are in love and hope for the future, only to be punished for it and denied the chance to be together. If Spike had died permanently it'd be different, but the fact is he's still "alive," and to deny both characters that simple happiness after so much shit is just not cool. I hate the message that sends, that you can do everything for love, and win all the battles, and still be punished. That you can do everything duty demands, make every sacrifice, win all the battles, and still be punished. To me, that punishing hopelessness goes against everything thematically central to Buffy The Vampire Slayer. The message of Angel is almost exactly that though--- how to continue on and do right while acknowledging the hopelessness. Spike, while he may live a season on AtS (I can't imagine it being more than that), remains a BTVS character, and his whole redemption arc fits better onto that show than it ever will on AtS, so I expect him to drift off that show and, in canon, back to Buffy's circle. Why punish the two of them? While both characters "live," for god's sakes let them have that small happiness with each other. Dragging it out otherwise just feels like a plot device cop-out.
4. "Because Anya, Tara and Spike were the outsiders, I identified with them a hundred times more, and loved them more for it." I find it hard to really get into Willow as a character, or Xander, though I had my moments of liking them well. After Buffy and Spike, Anya was my favorite character.
5. I don't think Dawn's sentiments during season six made her a whiny brat. I like Dawn. I've always liked Dawn. I often felt she was behaving exactly as someone her age and situation ought to be expected to behave, often better. I think she's cool, and clever, and she had a lot to rightfully yell and complain about.
6. "I loved Xander and Anya's relationship," but felt hard to sympathize with Xander when he fucked it up. But loved that she was still his partner, still his choice, as the show closed.
7. (I'm taking the whole thing from
buffyx for this one) "I don’t comment on slash a lot, mostly because I feel that people should be allowed to write whatever they feel like writing, be that slash, incest, bestiality, rapefic, whatever kink they have. Personally I don’t read much slash; just a personal preference, though if it’s the right author and/or pairing (I’m partial to Spike/Angel), I might read it. So, if you slash, more power to you. But don’t go parading around acting like you’re somehow championing for gay rights by writing about pretty boys fucking, and think that somehow makes you more progressive or advanced than the rest of us who don‘t care for it much, and think that we’re all just homophobic freaks. Hopefully none of the above applies to any of you guys. And yes, slash is a trend (and I'm talking about BtVS/AtS fandom here). Not necessarily a “fad,” per say, but lately it’s become much more popular than it used to be, so I’d call that a trend. That isn’t a bad thing. For those who are really, really anti-slash-- feel free to express your opinions, but if you’re constantly making “oh my god gay sex is totally ICKY” comments, not just on your journal but others, and making icons that convey the same thing, be prepared to back your views up. Especially if you’re fucktarded enough to tell people who slash that they should stop writing just because you say so." With the additional comment of: I prefer vidslash to ficslash any day of the week. If slash existed only in vids, sisabet would have had me as her eternal servant and slash fanatic at least a year ago.8. Romantic Giles fic bores me. Giles sexfic bores me. Especially Ganya fic... unless its parody.
9. I really don't think that Spike or Xander after season 3 would touch each other sexually with a fifty foot pole and blinders on. Not because Spike or Xander have a particular sexual preference (that's your judgement) but because they really can't abide each other. And not in a way that leads to "enemies attract" sex like Buffy and Spike, or pity sex. I just don't think either could bare to have intimate physical contact of any form. The best they do is tolerate each other, and both do that for Buffy. In fact I'd say Spike is more believably in-character to sleep with ANYONE of the Buffy cast, male or female, than have sexual relations with Xander.
Unless, you know, it's season 4 and they're both conmpletley high on drugged up food and have a three-way with a luscious fat girl and thus not totally in control of their faculties... best ask
lordshiva about that one. Or, if i'ts like in mustangsally78's story and Spike has to suck Xander's dick to distract Xander from raping Buffy while having his system pumped full of druggy shit from the Knight Rider car... but in both of those instances, there's drugs involved.10. Darla was Angel's OneTruLuv.
(I'm cheating with one more. The big one.)
11. I think the fact that Spike began his journey to redemption by choice and by love makes him more prepared for redemption than Angel, and more deserving of it. It makes him more of a hero, internally. Angel does the hero thing, and does it well most of the time, but he still can't change himself to be better. Self-change fundamental to redemption, in my opinion. He's still got the unconquered evil inside. Until he does that, he'll always be behind Spike in the race to worthiness.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-11-23 10:34 pm (UTC)Plus your opinion on Spike/Xander, yep.
Oh and after Xander stood Anya up in Hells Bells...I actively disliked the character until he somewhat redeemed himself *through* Anya in the latter part of season seven(though being A Willow girl his interactions with her in the season six finale made me cut him a ten second break).
no subject
Date: 2003-11-23 11:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-23 10:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-23 10:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 01:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 04:02 am (UTC)Wouldn't it be *my* brain you two copied off of?!! ;-)
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Date: 2003-11-23 10:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-23 11:02 pm (UTC)Do I want to know the other 7% ?
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Date: 2003-11-23 11:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-23 11:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-23 11:11 pm (UTC)caia
no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 03:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 04:00 am (UTC)Of course I almost completely agree with you (we share one mind, hee!). The only ones I can't quite gel with are #5 (season six Dawn made me embarassed for my age group, and there were a lot of instances where I thought she acted like an immature little brat) and #11 (I pretty much think of Spike and Angel as equal: Both have souls, both help save the world, both can be asses even with said soul, and both ultimately will do the right thing when given the choice-- either way, I don't want *either* of them to Shanshu).
no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 08:05 am (UTC)