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Dec. 3rd, 2002 08:47 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
timepiececlockGot very very upset with the bro tonight. No, more like, frustrated.
See, my dad and my brother (who's visiting form San Diego and I'm beginning to see the miitary's affect on his brain by now-- they were subtle and kept the brain-washing rather discreet before) get into this political argument.
About what? The middle east, of course. Specifically, Israel/Palestine. My brother's thinking that Israel is goody-two-shoes and is right to persecute and imprison the families of people who, as he says it, "cross their borders and blow up buses." My dad's trying to explain that they *lived* there, and that Israel was the invading army, so there was not border-crossing all like he'd thinking.
My dad says he's at the point where he's frustrated and disguested by both countries. His beef with Palestinians being the terrorism, and his beef with Israel being that the way they treat the palestinians that just perpetuate the blood cycle. Specifically, how the Israelis occupy Palestine, but don't treat the Palestinians with the same rights/ treatment as their own. He says its descrimination that is only making everything worse.
I pip in about here to say that as the the controlling country, and are thus forcing their laws on the palestinians, then Israel has the moral responsibility to give the Palestinians the same rights of human treatment. That's what we do here.
My brother goes on to say about how Israel's got a lot better rights than other middle eastern countries, where they cut off your hand for stealing. My dad pointed out that at least they cut off "everybody's" hand without being picky. That Israel is worse in a way, because they HAVE a constitution, but they break their constitution when dealing with the Palestians.
Then it becomes my brother arguing that it's OK, because they're enemies who go in with bombs, and why should illegal aliens be treated with citizen rights? He suggests that that's how it ought to be here.
At this point I want to smack my brother so fucking bad. He's fucking scaring me, because I *know* he's a smart enough person that he should see the wrong in what he's spouting.
My dad's saying they should treat them by the same laws. My brother's saying "That's not the way it is."
Instead I stand up, slam both my hands on the table, and say:
"Yes, it IS. We live by rule of law. If you choose to ignore your own laws any time you like, your government has become corrupted. An occupying country has a responsibility to accord the people they're occupying the same rights as they'd give their own citizens at home. It's wrong."
There's some interrupting, and then I ask my brother if he thinks a person who comes over from Mexico, if its ok for a polic officer to beat him or murder him, and that police officer should be blameless because the Mexican was an illegal alien. Brian says its "different, because that's california, and..." I can't listen to this anymore. Its insane.
My brother thinks that its ok to disregard your own laws if you're punishing people who you think deserve it.
It scares me that he doesn't get it. That it's not ABOUT what the laws are, whether they're cutting hands or allowing you to lawfully kill your wife for the sin of letting herelf be raped, or other things. The issue here is about following rule of law, because what's the point of having a constitution if you discard it for the people you "don't like"? Its about holding to your own principles, not about whether they 'deserve' to be descriminated against. It's about the wrongnes of the people DOING the descrimination.
America is founded on the belief in the governing philosophy of rule of law. Without rule of law our society is nothing. We make our own laws, and we agree to live by them. If they're wrong, we campaign to change them. We do not just collectively pretend they don't exist cause its makes our immediate problems easier to handle. If we were to do that-- we'd be betraying everything our country stands for.
It scares me that my brother is not grasping this. God, its like in the two years since he left for the Navy he's grown in maturity but regressed in his sense of humanity and the moral behavior of a thinking individual.
Now I have to worry about my brother turning into a racist. Fucking just what I need.
See, my dad and my brother (who's visiting form San Diego and I'm beginning to see the miitary's affect on his brain by now-- they were subtle and kept the brain-washing rather discreet before) get into this political argument.
About what? The middle east, of course. Specifically, Israel/Palestine. My brother's thinking that Israel is goody-two-shoes and is right to persecute and imprison the families of people who, as he says it, "cross their borders and blow up buses." My dad's trying to explain that they *lived* there, and that Israel was the invading army, so there was not border-crossing all like he'd thinking.
My dad says he's at the point where he's frustrated and disguested by both countries. His beef with Palestinians being the terrorism, and his beef with Israel being that the way they treat the palestinians that just perpetuate the blood cycle. Specifically, how the Israelis occupy Palestine, but don't treat the Palestinians with the same rights/ treatment as their own. He says its descrimination that is only making everything worse.
I pip in about here to say that as the the controlling country, and are thus forcing their laws on the palestinians, then Israel has the moral responsibility to give the Palestinians the same rights of human treatment. That's what we do here.
My brother goes on to say about how Israel's got a lot better rights than other middle eastern countries, where they cut off your hand for stealing. My dad pointed out that at least they cut off "everybody's" hand without being picky. That Israel is worse in a way, because they HAVE a constitution, but they break their constitution when dealing with the Palestians.
Then it becomes my brother arguing that it's OK, because they're enemies who go in with bombs, and why should illegal aliens be treated with citizen rights? He suggests that that's how it ought to be here.
At this point I want to smack my brother so fucking bad. He's fucking scaring me, because I *know* he's a smart enough person that he should see the wrong in what he's spouting.
My dad's saying they should treat them by the same laws. My brother's saying "That's not the way it is."
Instead I stand up, slam both my hands on the table, and say:
"Yes, it IS. We live by rule of law. If you choose to ignore your own laws any time you like, your government has become corrupted. An occupying country has a responsibility to accord the people they're occupying the same rights as they'd give their own citizens at home. It's wrong."
There's some interrupting, and then I ask my brother if he thinks a person who comes over from Mexico, if its ok for a polic officer to beat him or murder him, and that police officer should be blameless because the Mexican was an illegal alien. Brian says its "different, because that's california, and..." I can't listen to this anymore. Its insane.
My brother thinks that its ok to disregard your own laws if you're punishing people who you think deserve it.
It scares me that he doesn't get it. That it's not ABOUT what the laws are, whether they're cutting hands or allowing you to lawfully kill your wife for the sin of letting herelf be raped, or other things. The issue here is about following rule of law, because what's the point of having a constitution if you discard it for the people you "don't like"? Its about holding to your own principles, not about whether they 'deserve' to be descriminated against. It's about the wrongnes of the people DOING the descrimination.
America is founded on the belief in the governing philosophy of rule of law. Without rule of law our society is nothing. We make our own laws, and we agree to live by them. If they're wrong, we campaign to change them. We do not just collectively pretend they don't exist cause its makes our immediate problems easier to handle. If we were to do that-- we'd be betraying everything our country stands for.
It scares me that my brother is not grasping this. God, its like in the two years since he left for the Navy he's grown in maturity but regressed in his sense of humanity and the moral behavior of a thinking individual.
Now I have to worry about my brother turning into a racist. Fucking just what I need.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Family hey!
Date: 2002-12-04 01:17 pm (UTC)I imagine that it is hard to be a truly, moral individual and a good servicemen at the same time. After all your brother is being trained to kill (I do not mean this as a criticism, the USA is a great free nation and like all free nations is subject to envy of less happy lands. Occasionally and regrettably force will need to be used). Perhaps it is hard for him to do what he has to do, or what he might be called upon to do, with out seeing the world in such false black and white terms?
I am not trying to excuse him per se, just provide a reason for his regression as you term it. Is he still training? Perhaps once he has been posted to different parts of the world he will come to appreciate the subtle shades of grey which feature in these situations . I have found this with people who I know joined the army, while training or newly serving they tend to be very bullish and right wing, but once they have served a little bit (particularly the ones who do terms in Northern Ireland or the Baltics) they tend to "recover" there humanity.
Briefly on the subject of Israel I believe I am right in saying they are only one of three Countries who do not have a written consitution (the others being New Zealand and the UK). It's easier to cheat on the human rights issue when your supreme court can just "rewrite" the Constitution and dosn't read any laws that are passed by the executive in line with principals consitutional (as the US Supreme Court would).
I just wanted to close by saying that a lot of people in the UK worry that everyone in the US thinks like your Brother, that it is ok to disregard your own laws (your Founders having given you the finest written consitution ever drafted!) to punish those who would threaten or harm you, a worrying thought considering your position as the world power. I can't say how good it makes me feel to see you passionately speaking simple truths about rule of law.
PLEASE RUN FOR PRESIDENT SOMEDAY!
And good luck with your brother...
Re: Family hey!
Date: 2002-12-04 01:47 pm (UTC)No. He left boot camp over a year and a half ago. And he hasn't been trained to do anything physically since then-- he's in the navy, a radio guy. nd its not so much that he's taught to think that way, I think its the general atmosphere. Like, there's this peer pressure to have that kind of agression. And I don't disagree with that totally-- if he IS ever in a situation face-to-face, its best for his own safety to think of them as the enemy, because they'll be thinking of him that way. It more disturbs me with his willingness to group people together in generalizations, and to be soaking up all that negativity and anger and then bringing it home at night with him. And he says that he's one of the more left-minded people, compared to those he's met in the navy.
But while this bugs me, I think it will be somethign he'll gorw out of, especially when he leaves the navy, because my brother tends to let his opinions be easily influenced by others, if he thinks they have some kind of authority. And he changes his mind a lot.
(your Founders having given you the finest written consitution ever drafted!)
I know. God, sometimes I've just sat and thought "Jesus those people were so SMART! And we're so lucky they were! Why can't we have someone like that here and now?"
I can't say how good it makes me feel to see you passionately speaking simple truths about rule of law. PLEASE RUN FOR PRESIDENT SOMEDAY!
heee. now I'm all sheepish. I thought about that when I was little, an
Brothers
Date: 2002-12-04 09:32 pm (UTC)My brother's been in the Army for less than a year (including boot camp) and his attitude has gone the exact same way. Now, he never was a deep thinker or anything, but that makes me even more afraid as the propaganda he's spouting must have been learned from someone he considers an authority figure (like his CO). I am with you all the way. This is a scary time to be an American in many aspects. Do you know, yesterday I made a comment about Bush's "unlawful combatants" and someone told me that I should watch what I say, as I could be "reported"?!?! I couldn't believe it! I was absolutely speechless.
Good for you, for speaking up. We need more people like you!
Trisha
Re: Brothers
Date: 2002-12-04 11:08 pm (UTC)See, in that situation I think I'm a little luckier. My brohter does do a lot of thinking about stuff, but his problem is that everyone else influences that thinking. But I'm thinking that he'll probably change his mind again in a while anyway.
Do you know, yesterday I made a comment about Bush's "unlawful combatants" and someone told me that I should watch what I say, as I could be "reported"?!?! I couldn't believe it! I was absolutely speechless.
Wow. That's never happened to me before.
I wish it had. Oh the things I'd say to THAT comment. I'd rip them a new pair of lungs.
Metaphorically speaking, of course.