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Had a nightmare. I was trapped in a tiny, one-room motel room (with a door facing outside, at ground level), with Christopher Ecclestons' 9th Doctor and another girl who might've been a combination of two girls, a cousin and a friend, in real life. Oh, and my own little poodle Shadow, he was there too.

That wasn't the nightmare. The nightmare is that we had to barricade ourselves in because the outside world was being overrun by the zombies from 28 Days Later. Only zombie dogs tried to get in, but there were zombie people wandering around out there. All we had was a bag of junk-- a few books, two bricks, a couple rocks to throw at the zombie dogs if we should happen to have to open the door for some reason. But we had little to nothing to eat, and we were lucky only zombie dogs seem to know we were there, because you can't barricade a door well with a couple of bricks and a bed, not against a mob of fully adult zombies.

Most of the time the three of us huddled on the bed (unfortunately my cousin-friend was between me and the doctor), listening to the noise of the carnage outside and generally feeling totally overcome with abject horror about our chances of survival.

EDIT: I must say, now that I have some distance from the nightmare, I'm actually quite disappointed. Here we had an apocalyptic world-ending experience, and the Doctor was right there, and instead of fixing it we were holed up in a motel room talking about inane things and ignoring the screams and sounds of crashing stuff and ripping flesh. Why didn't he save the world, dammit?

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From:

rashaka.livejournal.com

Bopped 'em with a yo-yo, or sealed their jaws shut with jelly babies, or summat.

Have you ever seen 28 Days Later ? It would take something more than yo-yos and jelly babies, I think. These aren't your grandpa's zombies.

Actually, given our predicament, I don't know what the Doctor could have done anyway, unless he managed to remote-control the TARDIS into the motel room, and then go back in time to stop the zombies from appearing in the first place. But without the TARDIS, there really wasn't a lot he could have done, I suppose.

But I guess that's why it was a nightmare and not a dream.

From:

mswyrr

Have you ever seen 28 Days Later ? It would take something more than yo-yos and jelly babies, I think.

I was being a bit sarcastic, actually. And kind of still talking about the people who claim Nine isn't as heroic as the other doctors. See, if the script was written by one of Four's writers, even the most vicious monster would be deftly handled by steam, jellybabies, a quickly synthesized chemical concoction, etc. The same folks who point out Ninth's ineffectual moments seem not to realize that Fourth's tactics aren't any better, the writers simply *let* him save the day with a yo-yo and his wit. Television has changed, and Nine just got held to a different standard.

It was the LJ equivelant of staring off into space and talking to oneself.

Sorry.

These aren't your grandpa's zombies.

They were something. I'd never found zombies particularly frightening, but those made me cower and jump like a little girl.

From:

rashaka.livejournal.com

I was being a bit sarcastic too. ;) Only because these particular zombies scared me so much.

Since I've sticked mostly to Nine/Rose stuff in the fandom, along with some Eight speculation primarily with you, I hadn't really seen people complain about his lack of save-the-dayness compared to the other doctors. But I'd say it's probably closely tied with how much of an effect Rose's presence had on the plot. Like they said in Confidential 13, in many cases Rose as the companion drives the storyline directly or indirectly, and that's a big break in pattern from previous Doctor Who shows. So it sort of follows that with storylines being so strongly affected by characters other than the Doctor, that he wouldn't always be the one to save the day personally. I think it's more complex storyline that keeps it from becoming too formulaic-- it's more interesting if the problem is solved in different ways in different episodes-- sometimes by the Doctor, sometimes by a companion, sometimes by circumstance or a guest star. The Doctor's going to be involved and instrumental either way, but it would get boring if it was just him all the time.

Actually, if you want to counter the Nine-isn't-heroic-enough argument, you could say that Nine is a version of the Doctor that inspires the people around him to save themselves. Rose, Jack, the newscasting woman in episode 7, Gwyneth, Jabe, the young mother in episodes 9 and 10, even Mickey after a while. And isn't that better, in a way?

From:

mswyrr

Since I've sticked mostly to Nine/Rose stuff in the fandom, along with some Eight speculation primarily with you, I hadn't really seen people complain about his lack of save-the-dayness compared to the other doctors.

It was kind of a shock. I was curious about earlier Doctors, and went looking for meta about them, but instead found folks dissing *my* Doctor. I was quite offended. I wish I had said something, but I don't usually have a stomach for conflict.

But I'd say it's probably closely tied with how much of an effect Rose's presence had on the plot. Like they said in Confidential 13, in many cases Rose as the companion drives the storyline directly or indirectly, and that's a big break in pattern from previous Doctor Who shows. So it sort of follows that with storylines being so strongly affected by characters other than the Doctor, that he wouldn't always be the one to save the day personally. I think it's more complex storyline that keeps it from becoming too formulaic-- it's more interesting if the problem is solved in different ways in different episodes-- sometimes by the Doctor, sometimes by a companion, sometimes by circumstance or a guest star. The Doctor's going to be involved and instrumental either way, but it would get boring if it was just him all the time.

I can totally see that. It's not that Ninth isn't as heroic(He's a big damn hero! Grr! Avast! Speak not otherwise, Whofen of yore!), it's that the story has been rounded out to include other people.

Now, I'm only familiar with Fourth, really, but the way the story treated companions and one-shot characters was quite different. The focus was, more or less entirely, on his part of the story. Companions were more like accessories that saved him from having to talk to himself. Compared to Nine, he was rather emotionally distant with them on varying levels. He cares for them, but he doesn't need any of them the way Nine needs Rose, or even Jack.

What's interesting is that there's an episode were it's mentioned that, amongst classes like mathematics and telepathy, "emotional detachment" was one of the disciplines he was taught at his college on Gallifrey.

Considering the way he turned around one day, told Sarah Jane he was needed on Gallifrey, and that they wouldn't want her to come along, and then asked her to pack her things and shove off with barely a blink, it certainly shows.

And it does get a little boring.

I'd grown to *like* Sarah Jane, and I was left with the impression that I'd miss her a whole lot more than he would.

'Twas weird.

Actually, if you want to counter the Nine-isn't-heroic-enough argument, you could say that Nine is a version of the Doctor that inspires the people around him to save themselves. Rose, Jack, the newscasting woman in episode 7, Gwyneth, Jabe, the young mother in episodes 9 and 10, even Mickey after a while. And isn't that better, in a way?

Oh!! Awesome argument. Just perfect, and so true.

And it is better.

Our Doctor is better. And heroic.

And he wouldn't have treated Sarah Jane like that.

From:

rashaka.livejournal.com

Our Doctor is better. And heroic.

He is better. Emotional distance is boring. But I do love the brilliant plot twist of making the Doctor a war refugee-- the only war refugee-- as a way to force him to start connecting to people, because he really has no one else to connect to now.

You know what? Eight is a better, nicer guy too. He wouldn't brush off a companion coldly and quickly either. Nine got all his sweet disposition from Eight.

From:

mswyrr

He is better. Emotional distance is boring.

It's interesting in that it seems more genuinely alien, sort of the way Nine's obliviousness to Mickey's death made him seem alien in episode one. The way Four can care about people on an intellectual level, the level of principle, the way one cares about world-wide famin, even though one can't possibly connect emotionally with all the people who suffer from starvation the world over. He also seem to like trading quips with his little friends/companions/children/pets/whatever, and having their admiring company.

But I do love the brilliant plot twist of making the Doctor a war refugee-- the only war refugee-- as a way to force him to start connecting to people, because he really has no one else to connect to now.

And, for all his pointed comments about stupid apes, he seems to be learning to connect with people in very *human* ways. He's becoming more a product of the society/company he chooses to keep, rather than the one he was raised in, I think.

Four is more a product of Gallifrey, I think. An eccentric, rebellious Time Lord, yes, but still very much a Time Lord. I mean, what does it say about the Gallifreyans that they considered emotional distance as important as natural sciences? It paints a picture of people quite close to the way they're describe in Black & White, that Eighth Doctor fic you recced to me.

Man, that was a good fic.

You know what? Eight is a better, nicer guy too. He wouldn't brush off a companion coldly and quickly either. Nine got all his sweet disposition from Eight.

What's interesting to me is whether that was there all along? I've heard that Seventh was a rather Machiavellian guy. Did the traumatic regeneration that brought about Eight have something to do with bringing out his sweeter side? Did it break down some of the walls Emotional Detachment Class gave him? Or was it just being around humans for so long that did the trick?

One thing's for certain, I want to write Four/Sarah Jane, and I'll never be able to.

Because it's just so obvious that her love is one-sided, it's too pathetic to think about too much.

From:

mswyrr

Because, his principles, his moral code, have never changed, and one has to care/be a good person in order to come up with a moral code. So, maybe that was how his kindness expressed itself before? It got through in his dedication to making the universe a better place, and his desire to get far, far away from Gallifrey, even though the more emotional aspect of it had been locked down through training. And then various experiences and spending time with humans changed his emotional landscape as well?

Did part one of Genesis get through? 'Cause I really want to hear what you think of it.

Hope I haven't prejudiced you to Four.

From:

mswyrr

Ugh, I seem to be phrasing things all wonky tonight.

*blinks* *frowns*

From:

rashaka.livejournal.com

part 1 got through! I just read all your lovely explanations. I'm afriad I can't think of anything to say, just nod and agree with your wondering. I wonder about that too. But you've watched a lot more than I have so I'll just go with your analysis.

From:

mswyrr

I wonder about that too. But you've watched a lot more than I have so I'll just go with your analysis.

Once you've seen Genesis, if there's part of it you'd like to poke holes in, please do! I'd love to have another take on it. There's one particular scene in later parts (4? 5?) of Genesis where his actions could be read as a byproduct of his moral code or emotion for his companions, and I've read it as the first mostly, but I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on.

I realize that network concerns, writing style, etc. have all influenced the Doctor's character development, but I think decisions like the destruction of Gallifrey, and how that would shape his character, have come together with less far-sighted choices of past series to make an interesting, coherent arc.