BSG, Starbuck/Kara/that blond character

[timepiececlock]

Last night I watched the second half of BattleStar Galactica 2x02. This is the third episode I've watched. I have also seen 2x01 (the season premier) and the episode with all the prison convicts and the terrorist leader guy.

A brief history on me & BSG:

The prison episode did nothing for me. I yawned my way through it, idly thinking that the young headstrong guy who'd been taken hostage was significantly my kind of hot. Actually (this is going to sound weird), he reminded me of my kindergarten boyfriend, looks-wise. And I think it's pretty amazing I still remember what my kindergarten boyfriend looked like. Anyway, that episode left me "bleh."

Nevertheless, I watched the season premier. I guess all those promo clips of the old commander guy getting shot repeated ad infinitum while I tried to watch Atlantis and Fargate upped my curiousity. The season premier was interesting enough, but I still feel very little attachment to the characters. But I figured why not try since everyone else recs it so highly.

Last night, while watching the recorded episode from the previous Friday, I got to talking with my dad about the show. He's been watching it more than I have, and has a better handle on the current events. He's watching it because it's SciFi with explosions and space toys I think, because he doesn't seem to be all fanboyish for it like he was for Firefly and Startrek and Stargate.

He mentioned two main things he found detracted from the series. One of them was too many plot threads happening at once that made it difficult to follow and gave it weird pacing.

The second thing he mentioned was the blond pilot woman's character, Starbuck or Kara (I'm still getting used to the names on this show.) I asked him why, and he said that he found her selfish and untrustworthy, and her character didn't seem to jive with the situation, with the other characters. He said she hasn't been given much of a personality, and it was unrealistic that someone that untrustworthy and callous would be given such esteem, or would even rise to the position she's in.

I asked if maybe she was given esteem because she was a really good pilot. He said that's part of it, but that's not enough, and in a real military environment she wouldn't be regarded that highly or even reach that high a position because people wouldn't be able to trust her.


So... here's my question to you guys. What do you think about her character? I don't know much about her except what I've seen in these three episodes, and in them she's left me indifferent. But I note that she's a popular character on my flist.

So, what do you think? Do you think she's a realistic character? Do you think she has a personality? If you do like her character, why? if you dislike her, why?

Comments

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Starbuck is pretty much the most popular character on the show per my fList. I know she is up there as one of my alltime favorite characters of anything ever and I think the general fandom consensus is "Hot damn, we love some Kara Thrace"

Now - that being said, there are a lot of people who hate her. There was also some initial controversy because on the original Battlestar Galactica the character of Starbuck (that is her pilot handle) is a man. I think the gender switch was pretty much genius and I really do adore Kara. She is messed up and talented and has real emotions and conflicts and tries so damned hard.

But to get that you kinda have to see the mini series that starts the show and the first season. Because Starbuck is key.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I had heard about the genderswitch. Just on principle (the principle that tv needs more strong female lead characters) I approve of that switch. Also, I do like the slighty subversive/scandalous air of such a decision.

She is messed up and talented and has real emotions and conflicts and tries so damned hard.

So you think she's a fully realized character that doesn't feel out of place with the rest of everything else? Why specifically?

Though if you don't want to go into detail about, that's cool too. I know that sort of explanation can get tiresome. I'm just trying to get a sense of why people like her. In the few episodes I've seen she's done nothing for me, and I usually like the characters I like within about two episodes, so not getting anything from her by now is a bad sign for me.

Anyway, I'll probably watch the older episodes at some point. If only to understand what the heck is going on.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Well it isn't so much that I don't want to have this conversation as I feel it is pointless until you actually know who this character is. And to do that, you have to watch her introduction in both the mini and in season one.

I mean - right now all you know about Daddy Adama is that he is the dude on the table who is almost dead - right? I can sit here and tell you all sorts of reasons he is *more* than that and why he has the position and authority that he does have - but to you, he is dude on the table.

Starbuck gets away with a lot - sure. But in the old show as well as this one, her force - almost cult - of personality is backed up time and time again with tremendous talent and will.

Before the Cylons attacked she was facing a not so bright future and an incredibly painful past. Post attack, her brand of survivor is exactly what the humans need and this is a theme that is brought up more than once in S1 (and makes Starbuck a focal point in the conflict between Adama and Roslin). But again - you need to *see* this.

[voleuse.livejournal.com]

I love Starbuck, but your dad makes good points, so hmmmm.

I think a lot of the esteem is due to her skill as a good pilot, but a lot of it also has to do with the specifics of the Galactica's personnel. Commander Adama, in particular, probably had to do with that--she obviously has his ear, and he respects her as a pilot and as a military strategist. In the miniseries, it was pretty clear that the entire crew worships the old man, so his esteem for Kara would definitely have some carryover.

Also, since the Galactica was being decommissioned, it seems the atmosphere was relaxed from the military norm. IIRC, Starbuck was only on the ship two years before the attacks, and certainly they would have known about the decommissioning for at least a year of that time.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Also, since the Galactica was being decommissioned, it seems the atmosphere was relaxed from the military norm. IIRC, Starbuck was only on the ship two years before the attacks, and certainly they would have known about the decommissioning for at least a year of that time.

I'm confused... why would the fact that it's going to be decomissioned have any bearing on the quality of its personell operation while it's still in use on the battlefield? That doesn't make any sense to me, that it would be relaxed for the last year of its use. From what I've gotten from my parents (both Navy) and my brother who's currently in the Navy, that doesn't work. The military would keep the ship it top possible form and the crew in top possible form until the last hour of the last day that it's operational. Becuase even if it's being decomissioned a week from now, any time this week it might still go to war. I can't imagine a crew of any military unit having a "relaxed" atmosphere while on active duty.

But maybe I'm reading your comment incorrectly? ::confused::

[voleuse.livejournal.com]

No, you're reading me right. And I don't know very much about the military, so I couldn't speak towards accuracy or not.

From the miniseries and S1, however, I do think they were relaxed because of the decommissioning. My impression was that the Galactica was one of the older battlestars, and the crew wasn't necessarily the cream of the crop.

IIRC, the Galactica's XO actually did say something to the same effect, in regards to a Raptor pilot and one of the deck crew who had been...fraternizing. Essentially, that the affair hadn't been a secret, but they had been letting things slide.

From what I've gathered about the state of the Colonies, they didn't expect there to be any war--the Cylons being the only threat, and it seems that nobody expected them to return at all. The Colonies themselves seem to have had a firm alliance, so any insurrection--such as Zarek's rebellion in the S1 episode you saw--was seen as domestic terrorism, and not so much an act of war.

This is all speculation, of course, so it's entirely possible canon has or will contradict me.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

No - I think you are right. The Galactica was being decommissioned, things were relaxed and Starbuck was actually in the brig and possibly facing a finished military career if Adama couldn't get Tigh to drop the assault charge.

The attack changed everything. Suddenly Starbuck's skills as a pilot (and a trainer) were pretty much ine of their last lines of defense. The mini makes this clear.

[deaver.livejournal.com]

I happen to greatly like Kara. Mostly for me it is the idea that she has succeeded so well in what is typically (though not, apparently typically in the BSG universe) a man's position. I love that she is brash, headstrong, and un-forgiving of those who hurt her. I suppose those would be considered fairly masculine traits, (and considering that she took over the role from a man, that's probably a fair description) and I suspect that for most people those highly masculine traits are a turn off. And I suppose those traits would be a turn off for me as well, if it weren't balanced so quietly with her softer moments (none of which have been truly shown in the three episodes you've watched). She obviously cares greatly for her co-pilots, and for people like Adama, and those moments when she lets her guard down are precious.

I would guess that not having seen all of the episodes you lose some of the perspective that she is a deeply wounded character, and much of her bravado comes from trying not to get hurt again. She holds a great deal of guilt over being the cause of Apollo's brother's death (Zak), and probably feels even greater guilt over having feelings for Apollo. Add to that the betrayal she now feels from Adama (who has been like a father-figure to her) because he has pretended to know where Earth is located, when he truly doesn't know, and you have a character who's emotional control is being tested daily, and who can be easily manipulated by people like Roslin (the president). All this adds up (to me at least) to a very exciting and appealing character. Hope that helps a little.

[elz.livejournal.com]

He said she hasn't been given much of a personality, and it was unrealistic that someone that untrustworthy and callous would be given such esteem, or would even rise to the position she's in.

Wow. I'd say she's got the most personality of anyone on the show. She's strong, she's determined, she's funny, she's extremely creative and good at what she does, she's got an interesting combination of irreverance and religious faith, she's brash on the outside but fairly empathetic on the inside. She can be reckless and callous and impulsive, but that's what makes her interesting, and I doubt that we'd even find her behavior noteworthy if the character was still male. For me, she's very much in the Buffy-Aeryn mold of ass-kicking women, but also very much her own character, with her own issues and history. Needless to say, she's my favorite character, and my favorite part of the show. :)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Well, Aeryn and Buffy are my tv girls. :) That sounds hopeful.

You're the second or third person to bring up the idea that a negative reaction to her behavior might be different or the behavior uncommented on if she were a guy. That's interesting to me. I didn't get anything gender-related at all (positive or negative) during the discussion with my dad about the character, but it seems to be a definite point of thought for you guys.

[run-atreyu.livejournal.com]

From the eps you've seen, I'm not surprised Starbuck's not working for you. I can only think of maybe 2 other eps in the first season where she was as uninteresting (I did like 2x02 but she's not much like herself in it). Also? That prison ep. is, I would say the second weakest ep. of the first season. I'd make a list of the good ones but it'd include practically every ep. except (for me) the prison one (Bastille Day 1x3), Water (1x2) and Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down (1x9). So yeah - I think she's a great character, but you couldn't have seen worse eps to see that, unfortunately ;o)

[illmantrim.livejournal.com]

eh... I agree with what yer Dad says about her. I found her kinda... blah... and yet unsettling as well.

And secondly, I think on principle that I am annoyed by the genderswitch. There were at least five female characters in the old show, and rather than use any of them, they had to convert two of the males from the old show to female in order to have strong characters?

I applaud the inclusion of two new female characters in the bridge character and President Roslyn, but feel the show shows it's bias against women in the fact that they didnt even use the other fully fleshed out female characters and in the way those females are portrayed on the show. Kara especially shows herself to be very immature on a regular basis, and as yer dad said, even Commander Adama's influence wouldnt have saved her career.

[brynnmck.livejournal.com]

(here via voleuse

Well, Starbuck is my favorite character (by a hair), so that's the position I'm coming from, here. I would agree very strongly with sisabet, that in order to get the full picture of Starbuck's character, you really need to see the rest of the series, particularly considering the episodes you've seen. There are only 13 episodes (plus the mini), so it won't take up a ton of your time, and I think it's very well worth it, both to get to know Kara better and to get to know all the characters and the universe better. But, for what it's worth, the episodes that really made me fall in love with her were Act of Contrition (1x04) and You Can't Go Home Again (1x05), as well as Flesh and Bone (1x08).

I would disagree with your dad's assessment of her, in a way. I don't think she's untrustworthy--unpredictable, maybe, though even that's not quite right, since I think Lee's (Apollo) occasional lapses of control are a lot less predictable than Starbuck's habitual hotdogging and flouting of authority. She's predictably unpredictable, if that makes sense. And she is fiercely loyal to her comrades and friends, which goes a long way with me. She's also abrasive and messed-up, but there are reasons for that, and it's that combination of vulnerability and ass-kicking that really gets me. And I love her sense of humor and fun, which is much-needed on this very dark show.

I also think that, aside from having been a flight instructor, Kara hasn't exactly achieved great heights in the military. She was posted/accepted a post to a decrepit old battlestar, based on a personal relationship with its Commander, and she hasn't risen above the rank of Lieutenant (and quite possibly never would have). She's definitely not suited to command, I don't think--at least as we see her now--and we see her succeed at it temporarily in "Hand of God," but there's not much indication that she's known for being particularly good at much beyond flying and, occasionally, tactics.

But basically, I'll go back to what Sisabet said... first impressions are, of course, valid, but if you want to understand why people love Starbuck, that's hard to do without having seen the majority of her character development.

[woodface]

Do I think she has personality? Frak, yes. She's got too much of it and she is my favourite character in the entire series. Is she messed up and does she have issues? Sure.I think Starbuck is a lot more trustworthy than we see.

I think Katee Sackhoff actually adressed the issue in an interview and said that Kara just has to be a team player in order to be liked the way she is. I'm not sure we see that enough in the series.

But to adress the issue you mentioned. First of all, I think it's important to know that Kara used to be an instructor. She only went to Galactica after Zak's death. In my opinion, she was able to get a post there because of Adama and then you have to keep in mind that Galactica is the ship where they ship off all the mishaps to that they don't really know what to do with. But Adama is pretty much the key in it all, Kara is loyal only to him and this is why she has been able to function on the Galactica.

There is so much more about the character, but I'd be here for ages if I start.

[minisinoo.livejournal.com]

Personally, I find her one of the more unrealistic aspects of the show, too -- and keep in mind that I like the show (a lot), and I have absolutely NO issues with a female pilot ... was initially thrilled. But I quickly grew frustrated with the way she's portrayed, maybe because I've had the chance to know a number of female air force members, and she doesn't seem much like them, at once too 'fragile,' too emotional, and too, as your father said, untrustworthy (or perhaps 'unpredictable') is better. She reminds me of those "Army of One" commercials, which, incidentaly, most of the actual military people I know dislike. I never quite believe that she's real military.

I should add, too, that it's not that she's pretty. I actually knew a young woman, ex-air force, who was remarkably pretty in a similar way, but she left NO doubt in your mind that she could kick your ass, if she ever needed to. I don't get that sense from this character at all. I don't know if it's an actor problem, writer/script problem, director problem, or general concept problem (e.g., a feeling that a genuinely military woman would seem too 'butch' and not appeal to the 18-24 demographic). I suspect it's a combination, but yes, I find her the hardest part of the series to take, myself.

Just for the record, my favorite characters are the president, Adama himself (the commander), the chief of deck ops, and the loony 'bad guy' scientist (who I think does a splendid job of portraying a character somewhere between self-centered, cowardly, and slightly off his rocker). (g)

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of disturbed that Kara is the source of your father's discontent and not, say, Tigh, who is drinking himself into an early grave, making irrational decisions and pretty much frakking everything over.

But, then, I've always had a thing for tough women.

How about Zarek, the ex-terrorist who now is a member of the Quorum of twelve, and wields a hell of a lot of power, thanks to being able to play the "I scratch your back" game?

Erm. But you asked about Kara.

I think she's a realistic character, I think she has a personality.

She's pretty much the only reason I watch the show.

And if she were a man, I'm sure we'd be hearing that Starbuck is "everything a man should be" or some crap like that. (you want a parallel? John Sheppard on Atlantis has about the same personality, has made worse command decisions, and yet, everyone LOVES him)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Eh, you missed the point of my post. It's not that he had a problem with on her character in the sense that she's the only one with problems or the source of all conflict. It was that he didn't feel the character was developed as well as the others and that she didn't seem authentic or "real" for the military position she has.

Anyway, please settle down. There's no need to be snappy or defensive. It's an academic question, not a character bashing session.

[woodface]

It was that he didn't feel the character was developed as well as the others and that she didn't seem authentic or "real" for the military position she has.

Funny because she's the one character we have the most background on.

[fabrisse.livejournal.com]

Nope. Can't stand Sheppard. He's the reason that I gave up Atlantis.

I think any character written as such a poor officer would offend me no matter the sex of the actor portraying the schlub.

Perhaps it's because I grew up in the military, but I find Kara Thrace to be offensive. She's a disgrace to the service. Is Tigh worse? Yes, but only because he has more authority. I think it's significant that Tigh is presented as being a bad officer (though better when grounded by Adama) whereas Thrace is presented as a hero, albeit a flawed one.

[fabrisse.livejournal.com]

I got here through a couple of links.

I missed the BSG miniseries, but have seen all but one episode of season one and all of season two to date. Your father's right. The Starbuck we've been presented with should have been drummed out of the service years ago.

Yes, I was a fan of the old series, but that's not my issue here. I like the both series for what they are and don't worry about what they aren't.

However,I have some serious issues as to how she ever acquired the handle Starbuck. The Starbuck's of literature are contented people with a capacity for great joy (and often con artists). Kara Thrace is angst on legs. She's a poor officer who, if not drummed out of the service, should probably be swabbing the flight decks with toothbrush for the rest of her career.

I think Katee Sackhoff is a good actress, but she's working with lousy material. It's the one major flaw I see in the current writing.