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timepiececlockWarning: LONG-ass post ahead. Much analysis type stuff. Replies & Spike thoughts welcome.
I was reading a recent post by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
octopedingenue about Spike's capacity for unrequited love being part of what makes him appealing to female fans, and I had some thoughts on Spike's character that I've been thinking for a while and not known how to express.
I agree about the unrequited love, especially this comment she made, which inspired the rest of this post:
"...the character-plot of Spike being helplessly in love with Buffy was introduced in "Out of My Mind" and then cemented with heart-thudding finality in "Fool for Love". Spike was a hopeless romantic geek--he's just won the hearts of everybody who was ever a little bit of a hopeless romantic geek."
What really is great is that this development (unequited love and the content/revelations of Fool For Love) fit amazingly with what we already knew about Spike-- the FFL flashbacks were possibly the most perfect act of ret-con in BtVS history. The carefully planned ret-conning in FFL was better even than the flashbacks of Becomming, in season 2, as Spike's ret-con changed our whole perception of his character, and yet everything we learned made perfect sense and perfect logic with everything we already knew about him. The only episode to rival FFL in that was posssibly Anya's brilliantly done character flashbacks in season 7's Selfless. Though I think FFL pulled it off marginaly better, as we not only learned so much about Spike, but also a great about Buffy through how they relate to each other. It was Spike's revelations epsiode, and yet we also learned that Buffy is a lot darker than she admits, that she either has or will come to have a death wish (which came true), that Slayers find violence sexually thrilling, and that Buffy is defnitely attracted to Spike and to what he represents.
Never the less, the knowledge we learned in FFL and the way it was present is a perfect example of what's always amazed me about Spike's character and made me love him more-- that everything about him FITS.
He makes sense--- in a complex, pathological way that's so complex and layered and CONNECTED that he's almost as multi-faceted as a real human. He's surpassed most every character on BtVS in that-- we _know_ Spike, better than Willow or Xander or even Buffy. You can watch the episodes with him and you'll see this incredibly detailed character developed, and developed better, and in less screen time than the main characters. It's why there's so many essay on his psychosis-- because everything that makes him up, everything that drives Spike's actions, is shown to us on the screen. And most of it was shown in FFL; the rest, hinted at in Becoming ((alliance motivaitons)) and Lover's Walk ((every- and anything for love, again)) and followed up in episodes like Seeing Red ((bathroom/crypt conversations)), Beneath You ((whole ep)), and Never Leave Me ((B/S conversations.))
((Funny thought-- CwDP was an episode devoted entirely to understanding the characters' pathos and thoughts or motivations of the last year and beyond, and yet Spike's character wasn't part of that process. Why? Because we, the audience, already know him. We don't need a special episode devoted only to exploring his psyche like we needed for Buffy... his psyche has been developed thoroughly and perfectly already.))
You can then look at Spike and say "I know why he acts like a tough guy-- he used to be a geek. I know why he seems to have such extreme self-confidence-- its a cover because he's actually painfully sensitive and insecure. I know why he does everything he does on the show-- his greatest is to be loved and accepted, and so in each group he joins, and for each woman he falls for, he remakes himself to try to be what they want; but he often fails because he always loves the wrong woman and on top of that he horribly unlucky." The writer's have done consistant genuis with Spike in that nothing new we learn about him (except perhaps his ever-changing age) conflicts with what we already knew-- infact, in nearly every instance it has reinforced it, making the picture of Spike clearer instead of contradictory.
When a character is so well presented, so realisticaly portrayed in his/her human reactions, we feel like we know them, and can guess how they might reaction to a situation, in much the same way we can predict the people we know personally. Fanfic is all about that--understanding and knowning the character well enough to write them, and write their reactions, and do it believably.
Seeing Red might have thrown viewers for a loop at first, because it seemed to be very out of character for Spike, and that's quite jarring because everything about Spike and his character's growth has always been wonderfully IN-character, and believable. But even now you can find essays by Buffy fans that have amazingly convincing reasons for why his character did that. If you accept that it was menat to be part of his character, and you incorporate that into your perception of Spike's character and actions/motivations in the past, it becomes believable as something he might be driven to do. As an audience, we know so much about Spike that we can look at any action he does, and come up with a logical, reasonable way to identify his motivations, and we have the proof from previous episodes to back up our arguments.
How many other characters can you do that for? Possiby Willow as the next closest, but not to such a degree. Not hardly Xander at all (for me)-- I've always found him hard to write because while I get some of his reasons for his behavior, I've never really understood them all, and I've never been proposed a situation and been able to say that I can guess how he'll react, like I would be able to accurately guess Spike's reaction. Possibly Buffy, but if nothing else the fact that Season 6 left so many viewers confused as to her muddled motivations (whereas we were very clear about Spike's every motivation) is an example that we may have known Buffy's character longer, but we don't know her internal workings as well as we know Spike's.
That as complex a character as Spike has been so well developed, in less time overall than the original core characters, is an amazing feat by the writers, in my mind. And it makes me admire them and the show so much. All the more, knowing that Spike's character was a series of brilliant accidents that after a while became a driving force in the show he was supposed to die early in.
I was reading a recent post by
octopedingenue about Spike's capacity for unrequited love being part of what makes him appealing to female fans, and I had some thoughts on Spike's character that I've been thinking for a while and not known how to express.I agree about the unrequited love, especially this comment she made, which inspired the rest of this post:
"...the character-plot of Spike being helplessly in love with Buffy was introduced in "Out of My Mind" and then cemented with heart-thudding finality in "Fool for Love". Spike was a hopeless romantic geek--he's just won the hearts of everybody who was ever a little bit of a hopeless romantic geek."
What really is great is that this development (unequited love and the content/revelations of Fool For Love) fit amazingly with what we already knew about Spike-- the FFL flashbacks were possibly the most perfect act of ret-con in BtVS history. The carefully planned ret-conning in FFL was better even than the flashbacks of Becomming, in season 2, as Spike's ret-con changed our whole perception of his character, and yet everything we learned made perfect sense and perfect logic with everything we already knew about him. The only episode to rival FFL in that was posssibly Anya's brilliantly done character flashbacks in season 7's Selfless. Though I think FFL pulled it off marginaly better, as we not only learned so much about Spike, but also a great about Buffy through how they relate to each other. It was Spike's revelations epsiode, and yet we also learned that Buffy is a lot darker than she admits, that she either has or will come to have a death wish (which came true), that Slayers find violence sexually thrilling, and that Buffy is defnitely attracted to Spike and to what he represents.
Never the less, the knowledge we learned in FFL and the way it was present is a perfect example of what's always amazed me about Spike's character and made me love him more-- that everything about him FITS.
He makes sense--- in a complex, pathological way that's so complex and layered and CONNECTED that he's almost as multi-faceted as a real human. He's surpassed most every character on BtVS in that-- we _know_ Spike, better than Willow or Xander or even Buffy. You can watch the episodes with him and you'll see this incredibly detailed character developed, and developed better, and in less screen time than the main characters. It's why there's so many essay on his psychosis-- because everything that makes him up, everything that drives Spike's actions, is shown to us on the screen. And most of it was shown in FFL; the rest, hinted at in Becoming ((alliance motivaitons)) and Lover's Walk ((every- and anything for love, again)) and followed up in episodes like Seeing Red ((bathroom/crypt conversations)), Beneath You ((whole ep)), and Never Leave Me ((B/S conversations.))
((Funny thought-- CwDP was an episode devoted entirely to understanding the characters' pathos and thoughts or motivations of the last year and beyond, and yet Spike's character wasn't part of that process. Why? Because we, the audience, already know him. We don't need a special episode devoted only to exploring his psyche like we needed for Buffy... his psyche has been developed thoroughly and perfectly already.))
You can then look at Spike and say "I know why he acts like a tough guy-- he used to be a geek. I know why he seems to have such extreme self-confidence-- its a cover because he's actually painfully sensitive and insecure. I know why he does everything he does on the show-- his greatest is to be loved and accepted, and so in each group he joins, and for each woman he falls for, he remakes himself to try to be what they want; but he often fails because he always loves the wrong woman and on top of that he horribly unlucky." The writer's have done consistant genuis with Spike in that nothing new we learn about him (except perhaps his ever-changing age) conflicts with what we already knew-- infact, in nearly every instance it has reinforced it, making the picture of Spike clearer instead of contradictory.
When a character is so well presented, so realisticaly portrayed in his/her human reactions, we feel like we know them, and can guess how they might reaction to a situation, in much the same way we can predict the people we know personally. Fanfic is all about that--understanding and knowning the character well enough to write them, and write their reactions, and do it believably.
Seeing Red might have thrown viewers for a loop at first, because it seemed to be very out of character for Spike, and that's quite jarring because everything about Spike and his character's growth has always been wonderfully IN-character, and believable. But even now you can find essays by Buffy fans that have amazingly convincing reasons for why his character did that. If you accept that it was menat to be part of his character, and you incorporate that into your perception of Spike's character and actions/motivations in the past, it becomes believable as something he might be driven to do. As an audience, we know so much about Spike that we can look at any action he does, and come up with a logical, reasonable way to identify his motivations, and we have the proof from previous episodes to back up our arguments.
How many other characters can you do that for? Possiby Willow as the next closest, but not to such a degree. Not hardly Xander at all (for me)-- I've always found him hard to write because while I get some of his reasons for his behavior, I've never really understood them all, and I've never been proposed a situation and been able to say that I can guess how he'll react, like I would be able to accurately guess Spike's reaction. Possibly Buffy, but if nothing else the fact that Season 6 left so many viewers confused as to her muddled motivations (whereas we were very clear about Spike's every motivation) is an example that we may have known Buffy's character longer, but we don't know her internal workings as well as we know Spike's.
That as complex a character as Spike has been so well developed, in less time overall than the original core characters, is an amazing feat by the writers, in my mind. And it makes me admire them and the show so much. All the more, knowing that Spike's character was a series of brilliant accidents that after a while became a driving force in the show he was supposed to die early in.
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no subject
Date: 2003-01-04 07:33 am (UTC)I just finished a long Spike post about rape and now I want to read your posts because my feelings about him may change. Again. My feelings about him and the way he's written change often. But I need to remember my issues are with the writers, not the characters.
Re:
Date: 2003-01-04 10:59 am (UTC)::Chuckle:: My opinions about Spike and rape change often as well, but 3while my opinion about Spike shifts and adjusts somewhat with every convincing essay that I read, it's mostly stayed the same in direction/ overall opinion.
The link to the other post is here:
http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=octopedingenue&itemid=32261#cutid1
no subject
Date: 2003-01-04 02:26 pm (UTC)It's a matter of the perspective one watches the show from. Certain viewers are going to relate to certain characters, and that's cool, that's how it's supposed to be. But I strongly disagree that Spike is the only (or the most) sharply drawn character. There are plenty of writers and fans out there who could write a treatise on the motivations and internal workings of any and all other characters as well. And some who couldn't grasp Spike if he was standing in front of them in leathers.
Viva la difference.
Re:
Date: 2003-01-04 02:33 pm (UTC)::drool::--what? oh. sorry. image.
Yeha, I know what you mean though. I feel I can understand Spike the clearest (except when he was crayz--- I stopped writing fics with Spike in them when he was crazy, cause I don't write loony well at all.) I get Willow and Buffy a lot too, though sometimes Buffy throws me for a loop (which could be the rather stoic way SMG sometimes plays her), and I keep having to convince myself that Willow is nicer than I give her credit for. But I don't get Xander at all. I can guess--a lot and in detail-- but ultimately I don't, not anything after season 3.
And I lurrrrve Giles, but I have never felt the ness to go on an on about him. It's like... he's there, and he's cool, and you don't need to discuss it because he's above your measly little attempt at analyzing him.
no subject
Date: 2003-01-04 02:36 pm (UTC)HA! That's so Giles! And possibly, Oz....
Re:
Date: 2003-01-04 03:23 pm (UTC)Word.
Date: 2003-01-04 04:41 pm (UTC)I know why a lot of people don't like or are indifferent toward Spike. I don't agree with them, but I know why. And hey, more power to 'em. But their reactions to Spike (just typed "Spoike"; apparently I'm channeling Drusilla) doesn't in any way affect my affection for him. I've seen fan-love before, in myself and in other people, and I think it comes down to the Velveteen Rabbit effect: Somebody's love makes something Real to that somebody, and "once you are Real you can't become unreal again. It lasts for always." Spike is shabby and Real to me, and he always will be. And a while ago I took a long break from fandom in general because the flip side was so hard for me to accept: If something doesn't become Real for you, then it just doesn't. It probably never will. You can't talk yourself into it, and other people definitely can't convince you. This leads to a lot of stalemates and agree-to-disagrees and blank stares. This is what tends to keep me in my own little fan-corner of my own little fan-world. But c'est ma vie. (I read "The Velveteen Rabbit" waaaaay too often as a child. And I will just stop talking now before I get mushy and start weepily quoting Kathy Mar. Stop talking, Kawamir. Cease. Desist. We mean it.)
Re: Word.
Date: 2003-01-04 04:48 pm (UTC)Ah! Someone agrees with me then... kita is so wonderful in replying, but we have different opinions so I was getting pouty and lonely... anyway, hello then!
Aaaaaaaaawww.... I loved the Velveteen Rabbit, and it is appropriate. I also liken Spike to the Fox in Le Petit Prince... he warned the Little Prince that if they became friends, the Fox would be tamed by that association, and he could never not be tamed again, and the Prince would have responsibility to him then.
no subject
Date: 2003-01-05 12:15 am (UTC)Re:
Date: 2003-01-05 12:19 am (UTC)Except, you know-- not physically. I'm the only one who gets him that way. ;) All mine.
:grin: Actually, you can save the post. Go to the top of the post in the LJ/comments version of the page, and click on the little heart icon.
Then, just follow the instructions for adding it to your memories!
no subject
Date: 2003-01-06 11:43 am (UTC)What really is great is that this development (unequited love and the content/revelations of Fool For Love) fit amazingly with what we already knew about Spike-- the FFL flashbacks were possibly the most perfect act of ret-con in BtVS history.
just wanted to chime in (late, as usual!) as to my total agreement here. It's so perfect you'd swear they been planning it for years and I'm sure it wasn't... it's a beautiful and stunning thing, and probably a big part of the reason season 5 marks my cross-over from avid fan to obsession...
Re:
Date: 2003-01-06 01:43 pm (UTC)I know! I mena, you watch the show and you think "They must have planned this"-- but they didn't! They didn't start planning his character until season 4 when he became a regular... everything from season 2 and Lover's Walk in season 3 was writing that was planned in a very short amount of time, for a short-term guest appearance. And yet, it all worked.