Naruto 397 - 404

[timepiececlock]

397
If Madara's going to say that Itachi was secretly doing all of this to save the world... well, I already have a low opinion of the mangaka, so this can hardly make my opinion worse. I'm really in this for the characters now, not for the story. This stuff is cheap efforts at dramatic tension.

398
This is the lamest ret-con ever. Itachi wanting Sasuke's eyes was a much better approach.

399
This makes no sense. Also, given that anything a character says in Naruto is jossed or ret-conned to be a lie so many chapters later, and "truth" is never actually definitely true (very annoying and makes for inconsistent story-telling) we can already assume that half of this is bullshit.

I seriously think the mangaka has been making up the plot for Naruto as he goes along, for many many chapters now. He might have had a plan for the first half of the series, but I think when he started up again after the time-gap, he thought "Wouldn't it be cool if none of that was true, and it was all like THIS instead!" ::eyeroll::

On the plus side, Sasuke's being less and less annoying. Probably because he's wounded and tied up.

400
I want to edit my previous statement. It's the "lamest villain ret-con ever". The parts about the village and the clans are cool. This business of Itachi being secretly good and a pacifist all along is LAME-O LAMEY LAME LAME. What a cop-out.

Also, this makes NO SENSE. If all that was true, while try to kill Sasuke a few chapters ago? Why not just explain it? Even if Itachi was suicidal and wanted Sasuke to kill him, why endanger his beloved little brother's life by that terrible battle? Sasuke could have died any number of times. Not to mention leaving him in the hands of Orochimaru. The problem with making it up as you go along is all these stupid contradictions start popping up.

401, page 5: **MASSIVE EYEROLLING**

Also, I swear, if Sasuke joins the Akatsuki to protect Konoha from the inside like Big Brother did, I'm going to be severly disappointed.

There's a simple solution to Sasuke's current problems: go home! Seriously, whether Itachi or Madara are being truthful or lying, the best thing Sasuke can do right now is to go back to the village, ask for sanctuary, and get a life.

You know why this ret-con is lame? Because by saying "Itachi let you kill him", it invalidates the effort put forth. It takes an awesome fight, and makes it another disappointing illusion. It denies the audience AND the characters the chance for emotional pay-off. For a minute there, I was feeling pretty good for Sasuke, for him managing to actually defeat his brother, and at least this meant his betrayal had some value. And now all that's been invalidated. So where's our fucking emotional payoff?

I mean, I am all for betrayals and secrets and lies and conspiracies-- I love that shit. But there's such a thing as moderation and as appropriate use within the story as a whole. If we as the audience aren't allowed to feel victory for the characters at some point, then reading this just turns into a chore.

402
"The complete and utter destruction of leaf!"

Taking all the facts and all this new information and coming to the wrong conclusion completely. ::sigh:: You are a little fucktard, after all. A stupid one too, which is disappointing because I thought you were foolish but I never thought you were stupid until now. I mean, even your beloved Itachi warned you against Madara, and clearly wanted for you to go home and get a life.

Oh well. Naruto's going to save you. Even though you don't deserve it, he will.

The real suspense from chapter to chapter at this point is wondering how many geometric designs the mangaka can think of for Uchiha power-ups. This six-pointed star in a chemistry kind of shape? Not as cool as the spirally things. Lookin' a little desperate.


One thing that doesn't make sense to me is that if the Uchiha clanmembers had the ability to control the Nine Tails and protect the village, why was the attack 16 years ago so drastic? Why was the village almost wiped out? Why weren't the Uchiha being of any use?

403
"I'll resurrect the Uchiha my own way."
By spending a lifetime trying to eradicate the entire village of leaf? I guess basic arithmetic isn't Sasuke's strongest subject. I suppose nobody told him that subtraction is not addition, and in fact there's no way you can confuse the two, being fundamentally and completely opposite in definition.

If he really wants to resurrect the clan, and he hates Leaf, why not just move somewhere else? Why not take over Sound Village (or some of its territory), get married, and get a life? Raise his kids the way he thinks the clan should be raised, that kind of thing.

He doesn't think this crap through.

404
So Madara is the kage of Mist, right? Or is it Rain Village?

My earlier statement: "Also, I swear, if Sasuke joins the Akatsuki to protect Konoha from the inside like Big Brother did, I'm going to be severely disappointed."

Now I find out he's joining the Akatsuki for REAL, not for undercover, and that's even more disappointing. And as I said for chapter 402-403, stupid too. Sasuke's put himself through so much pain and suffering, and for what? He's a tool. He's a pawn. He was Itachi's pawn, Orochimaru's pawn, and now he's Madara's pawn.

It's hard to cheer for someone who lets himself be manipulated so consistently, over and over again. He hasn't learned ANYTHING. And that's the really lame part of this storyline. Killing Orochimaru didn't teach him anything. Killing Itachi didn't teach him anything. He hasn't learned the most important lesson: to thine own self be true. As long as Sasuke stays involved in Leaf's affairs, he'll always be someone's bitch dog. Even if he goes home, he'll be the Hokage's dog instead.

He should move somewhere else and get a life. Seriously.

But, of course, Sasuke's not that smart. That other guy said only an "idiot" would willingly go to Orochimaru, and that so far has proven true. Even though Sasuke is free of his mark (and now denied his stronger curse form, I assume), those events led him to being directly manipulated by Itachi then Madara. And he hasn't realized that he needs to "run away" and "cling to life" before he can find happiness or value in the world.

I feel like Sasuke's decisions in the last two chapters have turned him into a plot device, which bugs me. It makes no sense for his character, to tie himself to the Akatsuki. It would be smarter and in Sasuke's style more to simply go back to Leaf and assassinate the councilors. I don't see how the Sasuke of the last 400 chapters would suddenly want the total death and destruction of Leaf. What Madara told him should only affect his view of a small number of people, and Sasuke should be smart enough to realize taht, if he's as genius and the manga is always telling us he is. I also would have expected Sasuke to show more skepticism to Madara's story. He's made harsh insights while vulnerable before. He's foolish, but he never used to be stupid. The only reason he's suddenly turned into an idiot is because otherwise he wouldn't be a villain anymore. And the mangaka needs him to still be a villain so Naruto can save him. Plot device.

Comments

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

Actually, I disagree. It makes a lot of sense. Itachi was never presented as 100% evil. He was always ambiguous and a mystery. And in Sasuke's original flashbacks it was obvious that something was UP with the Uchiha and ANBU. It was just unclear what because we only saw it from Sasuke's point of view. And it was always strange that Itachi never tried harder to get Naruto or kill people from Konoha. He was always strangely disinterested, and even went to great lengths to avoid it. It would have made less sense if he'd just turned out to be a shallow, ambitious two dimensional villain because he was never presented that way. Hell it even fits in with what we know about Itachi from the data book. One S-class mission completed.

Also the truth about Itachi fits the themes of the manga and adds new parallels between Sasuke and Naruto. It's presentation might not have been perfect, but it does make sense.

And the emotional pay off depends on how you look at it. Entirely. I felt enormously satisfied because even when I wasn't a fan of Sasuke I was fascinated with his relationship with Itachi. The fact that they were so fucked over by both their family and the village is awesome to me. Tragic. But awesome. I mean here you have a ninja who was loyal to the point of of being willing to betray his family to protect it, and how does the village repay him? By forcing him to become a criminal. When he was 13 years old. And he accepted it. And remained loyal. There are actually parallels between Itachi and Naruto now which I also find interesting.

I wasn't looking for emotional pay off in the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight. It was a revenge fight and I don't think it was MEANT to be emotionally satisfying. Sasuke himself looked pretty numb about it all when he woke up in Madara's cave. It was pointless for Sasuke, because revenge is pointless. It's never been a theme of the manga that revenge is the RIGHT path to choose. On the contrary, it's always been clear that Sasuke was fucking himself over by making the choices he made, even if they were made because of his brother's manipulation. So Sasuke getting emotionally rewarded for it wouldn't make sense.

It does make sense for the plot, though, because with Itachi dead, something else needed to motivate Sasuke. Konoha ordering Itachi to kill the clan is perfect because it turns Sasuke completely against the village.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

It was a revenge fight and I don't think it was MEANT to be emotionally satisfying. Sasuke himself looked pretty numb about it all when he woke up in Madara's cave. It was pointless for Sasuke, because revenge is pointless.

I see your reasoning, but I see it differently, myself. There's a kind of catharsis that should come from a fight like that. After having sacrificed and abstained and done so much, the end of a great vengeance quest should bring catharis, even if the catharsis is death. Traditionally a literary character achieves his revenge and then, having no more purpose in life now that his enemy is gone, disappears from the story either through leaving or through dying. Of course, there's no reason a story has to follow that tradition, and in fact for Sasuke that would have been counter-productive, since Sasuke is at the beginning of his life, and his quest to kill Itachi was in its own way a quest to be free of obligation toward his family. But he should still have gotten some kind of catharsis from having his quest end. Instead, that fight now means nothing and the quest doesn't end, but in fact continues on in a warped form, that of Sasuke vs. Leaf.

In this, even Itachi's sacrifices for the village are made meaningless, because Sasuke got nothing from his fight with his brother except freedom from Orochimaru, which he didn't even earn himself, but was Itachi's doing. Sasuke's going to undo everything Itachi worked through.

If that's meant to be the tragedy of Sasuke's quest-- the tragedy that means he will never find an end to vengeance and in fact will turn from one quest to another because his heart is blackened by pain and misery and can never be free, that would be something. But I think that reasoning's too sophisticated for this plot. It looks to me like the mangaka just thinks it's one more way to keep Sasuke as a villain character until he and Naruto can continue to battle. Even though, for all intents and purposes, there's no longer any reason for Sasuke personally to hate Leaf. There's certainly enough reason never to return (to keep the Sharingan free from Leaf's control), but not enough reason for Sasuke to want to eradicate the village.

I understand that Sasuke believes the village ordered his family killed, and wants revenge for that, but it still doesn't seem like enough to me to want to help the Akatsuki and wipe out the village entirely. Why wouldn't Sasuke just go in and assassinate the council members? They're the guilty ones, not the entire village. And Sasuke until now has show only a desire to kill those people he believes are "guilty". Why should Sasuke need the Akatsuki? Why should he help them, when he's previously shown disagreement with their purpose?

I feel like there's a lot of inconsistencies in story and character here, and the only reason that it makes sense for Sasuke to join the Akatsuki at this point is because the mangaka wants to keep him involved as a villain. It's a plot device, despite the fact that it goes against Sasuke's character as we've seen it so far. That's why I thought it was stupid. Joining Orochimaru was foolish and risky but it was motivated by a certain cold logic. Doing this, not so much.

Unless we're to believe Sasuke's crazy now. I suppose taht would explain it.

More likely, though, 80 chapters from now Sasuke's going to "betray" the Akatsuki at the last minute, and say he was keeping them close to control them the whole time. That would be in line wiht the author's usual method.

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

In this, even Itachi's sacrifices for the village are made meaningless, because Sasuke got nothing from his fight with his brother except freedom from Orochimaru, which he didn't even earn himself, but was Itachi's doing. Sasuke's going to undo everything Itachi worked through.

That's part of why I like it, honestly. Because yes, his constant quest for revenge is Sasuke's tragedy. Itachi created it. That's part of HIS tragedy. He loved his brother too much to kill him but he still ruined his life. He was aware of this. Which is where his conversation with Naruto comes in. Itachi believes in Naruto. Or seems to. Which is really interesting to me. Itachi obviously liked Naruto's answer to him about protecting both Konoha AND Sasuke, and admired him for it. Itachi put his trust in Naruto to save his brother. So yes, Sasuke will constantly look for revenge. Until Naruto stops him. And he will. Because it's his story, and he'll do it.

And I don't think Sasuke wants to take out the whole village. He said himself he only wants to go after the elders. Which would fuck Konoha up politcally pretty thoroughly. So that could be what he meant by "destroy." And I agree it's not too bright to team up with the Akatsuki, but I think that's part of what's interesting me now. I'm really curious about how it'll all play out. XD

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Itachi believes in Naruto. Or seems to. Which is really interesting to me. Itachi obviously liked Naruto's answer to him about protecting both Konoha AND Sasuke, and admired him for it. Itachi put his trust in Naruto to save his brother.

Itachi's behavior to Naruto in that scene has a new quality given what we've learned (or at least, learned in as much that we don't know how much of what Madara said was truth), but that doesn't substantially affect my opinion of Sasuke's storyline. Naruto's been destined to save Sasuke from himself since the manga started, whether from Orochimaru or Itachi or Akatsuki. I just find it disappointing as a story tactic to prolong Sasuke's villainhood like this, past what I see as logical within the story given. And the weird thing is-- I don't even like Sasuke much as a character. I don't think he should be particularly good or be happy now that Itachi's dead. I just don't think the direction the mangaka took for him makes sense either. It's lame, and it's bad writing.

And I don't think Sasuke wants to take out the whole village.

In the conversation with the Akatsuki, going on the translation I read, he said he'd only thought as far as taking out the leaders. Which is different than saying he only wanted to take out the leaders.

"The complete and utter destruction of leaf!" was what the scans I read quoted him saying his new goal was. That's pretty straightforward.

I'd rather think "he doesn't want to" because taking out all of Konoha is out of character for Sasuke as we've seen him all the way through 400 chapters. I'd like to think he's only interested in assassinating the top people. But since I have to look at the text as canon "characterization" for Sasuke, it appears Sasuke wants the complete and utter destruction of the village.

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

But if Sasuke's villainhood ends, the conflict ends, and the manga would have nowhere to go but to a conclusion of some sort. Sasuke is the center of conflict. It would be illogical to me for his villainhood to end when the manga is still so far from ending. Sasuke has to remain an antagonist so Naruto can save him from himself. Just like you said, that's always been in the cards. If Sasuke is no longer an antagonist there's nothing to save him from. His villainhood HAD to be prolonged somehow.

And I don't know, I think Sasuke has a reason to be angry at the Konoha elders. The way he's dealing with it isn't intelligent or mature, but the emotion itself isn't that unreasonable. And I actually find him being angry at the village much more interesting than his being angry at just Itachi. And this entire scenario brings into focus the fact that the villages really fuck over these kids, and I really like that, too.

I've read three different translations of the chapter, because I don't always trust scanlators to get it right, so I go to mangahelpers and compare them. Two of the three translations I've read have Sasuke saying he only plans to target the elders, and doesn't plan to go after anyone else. The Binktopia translation is the only one I've seen that has him say "that's as far as I've got," and I don't tend to care for the translations they use very much. Kisame's response about the bottom ninja protecting the top ninja and calling Sasuke naive also makes more sense if it's in response to Sasuke saying he has no intention to target anyone but the elders.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

But if Sasuke's villainhood ends, the conflict ends, and the manga would have nowhere to go but to a conclusion of some sort.

That's why I see it as poor writing, the way this whole situation has gone. It feels to me like the author has written himself into a corner, where the only way to have his villain still be a villain is to make him suddenly change is tune and make illogical decisions.


And I don't know, I think Sasuke has a reason to be angry at the Konoha elders.

I agree-- I mentioned that in a previous reply. The elders, yes. The village, seems too megalomaniacal for Sasuke as he was up until two chapters ago.

What do the other translations say about his "Complete destruction of leaf" comment? To me that's the most important one, more so than what he said to the Akatsuki. If he said that in all three versions, then I think it means what it says.

Where do you get yours? I've gotten chapters from NarutoChuushin website.

[gojira007.livejournal.com]

[i]That's why I see it as poor writing, the way this whole situation has gone. It feels to me like the author has written himself into a corner, where the only way to have his villain still be a villain is to make him suddenly change is tune and make illogical decisions.[/i]

See, this is where I disagree. I don't find Sasuke's decision out-of-character for him at all, mainly because he has dedicated the last ten-or-so-years of his life to revenge and nothing else. Whatever progress he'd made in straying away from that was torn to shreds by Orochimaru.

Thus, once he finally claims his vengeance, the only thing left for him to do is seek MORE vengeance; it's all he knows at this point. Madara has provided him a new target (I'm all but positive he left details out of his story to insure the right reaction, of course, but for now we'll assume it's mostly the truth) to pursue, and so, just as he did with Itachi, Sasuke has chosen to be the Avenger and destroy Konoha.

We've known from the start that Sasuke's desires would likely provide only hollow victory at best, and so, confronted with the choice of hanging his tail between his legs, swallowing his pride and returning to Konoha (now THAT would seem out-of-character to me...) or clasping onto a new mission for himself to fill the void left in the wake of Itachi's death, he chose the latter.

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but. I don't think his decisions are any more illogical than they normally are? Sasuke has never made good decisions. That's part of his problem. ):

What do the other translations say about his "Complete destruction of leaf" comment?

The more common translation of that was "crush Konoha." I thought the "Complete and utter destruction of the leaf" translation was a bit over dramatic. XD

I read the chapters on onemanga first since they tend to come out there first, then I download Binktopia's scanlation to compare them. And then I check out the text translations at mangahelpers to compare further. They can be found here for the most recent chapter. There are only two this week so far. Usually there are 3 or 4. I like to read the compilation because it makes comparison easy. I tend to like Carlos Net's translations the best.

[faoiltiamatani.livejournal.com]

That's part of why I like it, honestly. Because yes, his constant quest for revenge is Sasuke's tragedy. Itachi created it. That's part of HIS tragedy. He loved his brother too much to kill him but he still ruined his life. He was aware of this. Which is where his conversation with Naruto comes in. Itachi believes in Naruto. Or seems to. Which is really interesting to me. Itachi obviously liked Naruto's answer to him about protecting both Konoha AND Sasuke, and admired him for it. Itachi put his trust in Naruto to save his brother. So yes, Sasuke will constantly look for revenge. Until Naruto stops him. And he will. Because it's his story, and he'll do it.

I agree with this! Actually, I hated this whole storyline to start out with, but it has been growing on me and now I am excited for what it could mean for future events.

Sasuke making these stupid, twisted decisions is pretty in line with many of the adult nins of the previous generation. Not very surprising, considering their upbringing, and considering Sasuke's upbringing especially (good job, Itachi). Naruto stands out because his view on his world and on the ninja is so very different from the norm, that he's changing all that. Sasuke is the biggest product of the twisted side of ninja life. Thus, he is going to be Naruto's biggest challenge in order to save.

[mildmay.livejournal.com]

Sasuke is the biggest product of the twisted side of ninja life. Thus, he is going to be Naruto's biggest challenge in order to save.

Yes, exactly! XD

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

There's a simple solution to Sasuke's current problems: go home! Seriously, whether Itachi or Madara are being truthful or lying, the best thing Sasuke can do right now is to go back to the village, ask for sanctuary, and get a life.

WORD. Or you know what? Go back to the village and find out who ordered the massacre of his clan, then make it public. It can be argued how much Sasuke knows about what's going on in Leaf, his two best friends are:

a.) best friends with the leader of Sand, student of one of the legendary sanin, and has gained quite a following in the village

b.) beloved apprentice of the goddamned Hokage.

This boy, like the Uchahi clan as a whole, had so many tools and options they didn't use. It kills me.

If he really wants to resurrect the clan, and he hates Leaf, why not just move somewhere else? Why not take over Sound Village (or some of its territory), get married, and get a life? Raise his kids the way he thinks the clan should be raised, that kind of thing.

Because that would be the smart thing to do. I mean, seriously, if you think about it, give it a generation or two, and he'd been in such a better place to take down the Leaf. But that would require planning and forthought.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I mean, seriously, if you think about it, give it a generation or two, and he'd been in such a better place to take down the Leaf. But that would require planning and forethought.

Exactly. And more than anything else, that's what is annoying me about the last couple chapters, with the Akatsuki. If you look back as Sasuke's previous Bad Decisions, they were arguably foolish, regretful, or not worth it, but they made a sick kind of sense. As terrible as it was for Sasuke to betray Leaf to serve their #1 Enemy and risk giving his power to that enemy, when you get down to it the cold hard facts of what Sasuke wants out of life, Orochimaru was one of several possible logical choices. Not the wisest or the friendliest, but it still made a cold rational kind of sense. This path leads to power that will help him with his life mission. He knew that Orochimaru was weakened by the Leaf-Sand-Sound conflict and wasn't a serious threat to the village, and he knew that the thing from the village that Orochimaru wanted most was himself. So the only thing he was really sacrificing was himself.

But here, with the Akatsuki, even if Sasuke only wants to hurt the people who made the decision to execute his clan (some translators handled it differently), the Akatsuki just outright TOLD him that a) they plan to kidnap/kill Naruto, and b) they want to create war everywhere and wish only ill on the village of Leaf as a whole. Then the Akatsuki says "we'll take care of it, you go do this instead." So Sasuke basically agrees to help and or ignore them while they hurt his one-time best friend and the [innocent] Leaf villagers in exchange for them doing what he could, if he decided to, just go do by himself. He doesn't *need* them, especially not with his own pres-gang on call, and what they're offering doesn't nearly equate to the cost. That's a massive plot hole in Sasuke's decision-making process.

As I said in the post:
"He's foolish, but he never used to be stupid. The only reason he's suddenly turned into an idiot is because otherwise he wouldn't be a villain anymore. And the mangaka needs him to still be a villain so Naruto can save him. Plot device."

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

YES! I mean, you used to see why Sasuke was making the choices he was, even if they were the worst ones available. But now? He's making bad choices even for his stated goals.

Sasuke: walking plot device.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

This boy, like the Uchahi clan as a whole, had so many tools and options they didn't use. It kills me.

I *know*. Even assuming that Itachi thought he had no choice and thought he was being loyal, Sasuke doesn't have those limitations. Right now Sasuke can do whatever he wants. And Sasuke was always a blatantly, almost unattractively ambitious thinker. So why isn't he THINKING?

Also, word about Sakura and Naruto. I can see Sasuke assassinating the decision-makers before I can see him trying to publicly oust them, but either way he's ignoring the valuable resource that Naruto and Sakura represent. I mean-- he could even ABUSE their friendship, use them as a resource and manipulate them to get to the council members and that would STILL be a more logical and direct approach than letting Akatsuki take care of it for him.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I mean-- he could even ABUSE their friendship, use them as a resource and manipulate them to get to the council members and that would STILL be a more logical and direct approach than letting Akatsuki take care of it for him.

Fuck yes.

I would love to see more of this.

I am actually in the midst of plotting out a Sakura/Kakashi fic which has Sasuke coming back to Konoha, and I am really hoping (if I do my job right) that based on what the reader knows, it's super ambigous whether/how much of Sasuke's interest in Sakura is in HER and how much is in what she can do for him.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

ooh, I'd love to see you really dig your heels in for a fic! That sounds interesting, too. I didn't like Sasuke/Sakura/Kakashi triangles much in the past because I don't like how most fics characterize Sakura when she's with Sasuke (she is always second, or lesser than him, or carrying his weight), even if she doesn't stay with him the whole fic. I like to think that post-time-jump Sakura is more self-confident and self-assured than she was when she crushed on Sasuke as a genin.

But, knowing how you feel about making Sakura a badass, I think I can trust you as an author to handle it right. And I wouldn't mind reading about this older version of Sasuke who beat his brother and learned all these village secrets. Except not the stupid version of him.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

*nods*

I'm not usually into love triangles in general, but I dunno, the set up for Naruto kind of screams for them. Plus, what I really want to see in a love triangle fic is Sakura saying no to Sasuke, thinking that that means that she gets nobody.

And I really like the idea of Sasuke being SMART and taking advantage of the friends he has in Konoha.