Some more Doctor Who analysis: "I dun care who loves who as long as it doesn't violate continuity."

[timepiececlock]

rynne posted thoughts on why RTD & crew's view of the theme of lonely messiah doesn't mesh with her idea of what DW is about. She talks about season 4 spoilers in depth, and about the character from the "Silence In The Library" two-parter. I gave a long reply and I wanted to post it here.

The Lonely God?

I agree with rynne about not liking the "DW must be the lonely god, alone, isolated and miserable" philosophy that the crew and writers talked about heavily in the 4x13 Confidential. I get that this was a strong part of the first few seasons of New Who, and I even think it worked very well with the plot of his planet being destroyed. But I never thought it was supposed to be forever... I thought he was supposed to be healed by people like Rose and Martha and Jack and Donna. I would have liked to see that healing happen...I thought it was happening. Until the very end of this season, I honestly thought that's what Donna was there for. She could make him better, but he wouldn't be as dependent on her as he was on Rose, so the eventual loss would be okay. She could travel with him for a season or two, leave amicably, and the Doctor wouldn't be quite so destroyed at the season finale. Each season finale has left the Doctor more and more successively miserable, this fourth season being the worst because of the double-loss of Rose AND the new best mate in Donna. I think a season finale can still be exciting without ripping your heart out and kicking it into a rain gutter. The Doctor's been lonely for a while, but it's not a fundamental part of Doctor Who that he be lonely forever.


River/Doctor vs. Rose/Doctor

First, and completely separately from the discussion below, I want to address something I've seen mentioned by a few Rose/Doctor fans about River's character and potential future romance with the Doctor. Namely, the idea that he would somehow be with her in the future "out of obligation" to "maintain the paradox" and, the worst, because "he felt sorry for her dying." Granted, only a few--less than five--- people have said that where I read it, but still. OMG people. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It diminishes all the characters involved, it makes no sense with the plot proposed or with the Doctor's character development, and mostly, it's stupid. I hope this is a very small minority opinion in the fandom because it's far, far cry from how I see the Doctor, River, Rose, or any of the relationships therein. And on top of that: why diminish the future potential love story there? It's not in competition with the Doctor's love for Rose. THE DOCTOR LOVES ROSE. We know it, it's canon, it's unarguable fact, whether all fans like it or not. And at this point, nothing can change the fact that one of the Doctor's regenerations chose to give up the TARDIS and live out a human lifetime with Rose. He could have traveled with himself, but he didn't-- he gave all that up for love. Not for domesticity or timebabies, for the chance to grow old with the woman he loves. However, that doesn't mean that the version of the Doctor who lost Rose won't love future companions, and it doesn't mean he won't find an equally romantic epic love with someone else in the future. I hope he does! Because love is a good thing. And if it's not a future romantic plotline but something quite different then that's even better because I think the show needs a long break from epic love anyway.



Moving on to my main thoughts: rynne's comments about River Song and fic speculation reminded me of how much I hope we don't see her character return, at least with David Tennant's tenth Doctor. I liked her story well enough (though it could have happened in season 5, after Rose's send-off, and it would have fit better), because it was an interesting concept. But what I liked about it was the idea that her Doctor was much much older than Ten is now, that we're looking at least one, maybe two or three regenerations down the line. Where maybe the Doctor, when he meets River Song for her first meeting, and when he "falls in love" (if that's what their relationship is), that because of his experience loving Rose he would do better and be wiser this time around... he would know enough to not push away love or keep the person he loves at a distance. He'd know not to waste time. The self-punishing reasons he'd had for holding back with Rose would be let go, and he'd be freer to love. That might not make a better tv show, but it'd make a healthier Doctor.

But if that happens in front of us on screen, then it will eventually go back to the same problem that Dr/Rose had in the framework of the show: the Doctor can't have a wife or a true love forever traveling with him. The writers went through a lot of hoops to give as much leeway as they could to the Dr/Rose romance, to make it as epic and TWU LUV as possible, and still keep the Doctor as a gypsy who never settles. They had to go to the extreme lengths of twinning him to end that story with as much of a happy ending as is plausible. So how would they make it work with River? And if there is a way to make the relationship work... why wouldn't they have tried that method with Rose's character? The Doctor's smart enough to think of it.

I worry about possibilities of River's return because I am concerned that they'll present the love story in such a way that it invalidates the enormous problems of structure and continuity that the Rose love story faced. If there is River/Doctor, I want it to have to address those same problems, and if it overcomes them, to overcome them in such a way that I'm not left wondering "Why didn't they do that a couple seasons ago? HELLO?"

I hope the River/Doctor romance happens far in the future, not on screen. I like that, because it means I can imagine the romance in such a way that it is in keeping with continuity and prior relationships that Nine and Ten have had with their companions, and older Doctors too. I do hope the Doctor finds love after Rose, but when he does I want it to be written right. I want it to be a compliment, rather than a competition, to his previous loves. And, a bit selfishly, I want it to be with an incarnation that didn't love Rose. That means not David Tennant.

The only way I can see it working within the framework and canon set up by the new who series and its limitations is that River cannot travel with the Doctor. The Doctor can't have a wife or a live-in lover during the show, but if she traveled briefly as a companion then they separated, that I could understand. It matches the Time Traveler's Wife-style diary from the library episode, and in fact would mimic the Clare/Henry relationship in the book, that way. The Doctor could pop in and out of River's life... she on a continuous timeline and him visiting her whenever. Although it's not terribly romantic, it does solve the conflict of her being with him forever like Rose wanted to be (and like he wanted Rose to be.) That's the only way I can see the relationship working... but, again, it's not very romantic, and it's hard to imagine that kind of "drop by whenever" love could lead to the intimacy which was suggested by her knowing his name.

Conclusions? I don't really have any conclusions, but I wish they'd done the River Song subplot after Rose's permanent departure, where it would have felt less awkward. If they ever bring her back, I hope they keep to the in-text canon remarks of him being older, and that the Doctor that falls in love with River (if that's what happens), isn't the same Doctor that lost Rose twice on the beach. I don't think that'd be healthy for him and I don't think it would make the show better to introduce a new true love plotline when it took four seasons to conclude the last one. The Doctor really needs a new friend far more than a new love interest right now.

Comments

[cecily1010.livejournal.com]

@ rashaka: "But what I liked about it was the idea that her Doctor was much much older than Ten is now, that we're looking at least one, maybe two or three regenerations down the line."

... Did River say that "her" doctor had a different, ie not Ten's, face? I thought Ten, only much older and more powerful, was the one that is going to be with her.

I *liked* River: such a cool and clever woman. She obviously cares deeply for him, but seems much more grown-up and much more on his level of cleverness, independence and flamboyance than, ahem, Rose and Martha.

I liked the idea that she'll be important enough to him that he'll tell her his true name. It means that there's still room for the Doctor to grow and change - still some things left that he hasn't experienced yet.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I don't remember exactly, but I don't think they mentioned face or not. I think that was left completely open. But at the time that I was watching I assumed it was with a different Doctor, just because of how she stressed his youth (and because I figured they'd wait a while to bring her back until Rose's storyline was concluded and they'd put some space in between old and new love interests.) I assumed that when I was watching, because that's how it made the most sense to me as a viewer, but I don't think the episode said anything outright about whose face she was most familiar with.

I *liked* River: such a cool and clever woman. She obviously cares deeply for him,

I liked the concept of the character more than the actress, but she seemed to be of the same personality fold as Rose, and Martha, and Donna: a strong, intelligent woman who wasn't afraid to argue with him. Sure she came off as older and more intellectual than Rose... but Martha more intellectual than Rose, and Donna was far more mature than Rose or Martha. I don't know about more cleverness or flamboyance, since I think all the new Who companions have displayed those qualities. The Doctor clearly has a type that Rose, Martha, Donna, River, and even Jack all fit. Which isn't to say they're the same, but that they do have overlapping qualities. He likes bright, vivacious people.

It means that there's still room for the Doctor to grow and change - still some things left that he hasn't experienced yet.

That's almost verbatim how I felt about the end of the episode where he opens the TARDIS with a snap of his fingers, and why I like the idea of River being with a much older version of him. I like the thought that he can change, and grow, and be more than he is right now. I like the idea of new characters that help him grow in new ways, and River has a huge potential to be one of the people in that process.

[usaku.livejournal.com]

I just watched these eps with a friend yesterday and I noticed how at first she comments that, judging by his face, it's only been a few days (since she last saw him?). But as she rattles off adventures and he doesn't get it, she looks at his eyes and makes the comment about how she's never seen him/them so young. I took that to mean she knows the Tenth Doctor, but that his soul looks less weathered/experienced than she knew him. I think if it was an incarnation that she didn't know, she would have been less confused/hurt about him not recognizing her. If it was a version she didn't know, she should expect that he either doesn't know her at all or would recognize her instantly (if a later version than the one she knew). She seemed hurt/surprised about the whole thing, so I fully expect to see her again in some way when Moffat takes over. (Not sure I'm ready for that, however.)

[mswyrr]

... I thought he was supposed to be healed by people like Rose and Martha and Jack and Donna. I would have liked to see that healing happen...I thought it was happening. Until the very end of this season, I honestly thought that's what Donna was there for. She could make him better, but he wouldn't be as dependent on her as he was on Rose, so the eventual loss would be okay. She could travel with him for a season or two, leave amicably, and the Doctor wouldn't be quite so destroyed at the season finale. Each season finale has left the Doctor more and more successively miserable, this fourth season being the worst because of the double-loss of Rose AND the new best mate in Donna. I think a season finale can still be exciting without ripping your heart out and kicking it into a rain gutter. The Doctor's been lonely for a while, but it's not a fundamental part of Doctor Who that he be lonely forever.

Total agreement! The Doctor used to say things like "where there's life, there's hope," and I was thinking that that would be his story, that choosing to live and be part to other people's lives makes things better bit by bit. I don't want a panacea for the problem's they've given him, but some growth would be nice. Dispollyanna approaches to storytelling are quite as frustrating and ultimately shallow as the Pollyanna approach, imo.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what pollyanna is in this context, but i probably agree with you.

[mswyrr]

Pollyanna stories are ones where everything is made to be neat and tidy and work out perfectly to the extent that you can feel the author forcing the characters to embrace each other and smile at the end. Dispollyanna is where you can feel the author forcing the story to make the characters suffersuffersufferr because s/he labors under the delusion that such things are Deeper and More Meaningfuller.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Ahh. That makes this episode a bit confusing, doesn't it? kinda does both for the different Doctors.

[mswyrr]

Hmmm. Good point.

Wow. RTD combined BOTH types of unsubtle writing in one forty-three minute episode!

Kid's got talent.

[cecily1010.livejournal.com]

A Polly/Dispollyanna! I like it. Makes me wonder if there's such a thing as a Mary/UnMarySue. A companion character (they are MarySues, right?) who we wouldn't like to be?

[mswyrr]

. Makes me wonder if there's such a thing as a Mary/UnMarySue. A companion character (they are MarySues, right?) who we wouldn't like to be?

The current series hasn't done it, but Five had quite a few non-Sue companions. One joined the TARDIS crew to assassinate him. Another had been trapped on board and wanted only to escape. The third was this irritating little openly chauvinist math genius who once bloody sided with the episode's villain.

I mean, these characters developed, but... DAMN. I wouldn't want to imagine being any of them.

[mswyrr]

...I think Mary Sues have to be a bit more astonishingly perfect to be true Sues. Companions are more like... positive identification figures?

third time's the charm

[mswyrr]

Adam! (Was that his name?) The one Nine and Rose picked up after Dalek and took on one trip and then dumped off with weird finger-snappy tech in his head.

He kind of fits the bill, don't you think?

[cecily1010.livejournal.com]

hmm ... I always thought a Sue is an "insert yourself here" character. The one that makes googly eyes at the hero :-)))
Judging from some of the scripts he wrote, I do think RTD fancies the Doctor a bit - ahem.

[mswyrr]

I think it's required for Sues and Stus that the character be extraordinarily privileged within the text--i.e. s/he can do no wrong; nobody questions him/her and if somebody does, it's because they're Wrong--otherwise, there becomes no genuine room for identification figures who are flawed and human yet live brighter lives than the audience gets to, which are a healthy part of good fiction.

Re: third time's the charm

[cecily1010.livejournal.com]

you're right - although Adam would be more of a Gary Stu, or non Gary Stu ..

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I have to rec this music video:
http://humansrsuperior.livejournal.com/76803.html

It's almost made me forget the sadness of JE and fill with happiness instead. Which is a neat trick. (I was impressed)

It's Ten/Everyone, showing everything from Ten's first Christmas Invasion to the end of season 4. Excellent timing, delectable clip choice, and it made me feel a little bit better for Ten. Which shows how massively suspectable I am to music.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

*susceptible

[demeter918.livejournal.com]

I liked River Song; I know she wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but I liked the concept of her and the hint of her future involvement. It was very Time Traveler's Wife for me and though I'm a diehard Doctor/Rose shipper, it's comforting to know that the Doctor has someone else to love in the future. The concept that he should spend the rest of his long lives along and pining for Rose is something I loathe.

He will and should mourn the loss of Rose; whether anti-Rose fans like it or not, she has played a huge part in his lives. She was his only constant companion in his ninth incarnation and it was obvious that he loved and loves her. While it might seem vaguely creepy in ways, he sent his human double (but still a Time Lord of sorts) to the parallel world to be with Rose since he couldn't (both story-wise and reality-wise). It doesn't spell love to everyone's idea (but then, what does?), but it's love nonetheless (whatever his motivations were). It gives me a sort of comfort that, somewhere out there, there's a version of the Doctor and Rose always running to and away from danger.

(I do agree that a S5 River-episode would have been more palatable. The Doctor wasn't in the right place at that point and it showed. For some reason, I kept seeing Tennant rather than the Doctor, which was a bit of an odd feeling.)

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Here via the_spdn. Three things:

1. THANK YOU for putting down all the "he'll only be with her out of obligation" folks. I hate hearing people say that all the time.

2. I think it's entirely possible that the Doctor that River knows best is a future body, but at least the beginning of their relationship happened when he was still Ten, because otherwise, she would have realized MUCH sooner that he wouldn't yet know who she was.

3. The Doctor could pop in and out of River's life... she on a continuous timeline and him visiting her whenever. This is the impression I've had ever since first seeing the episodes! I think they do have a romance, but not a conventional one, and certainly not an EPIC one on the scale of the Rose romance. An open relationship, of sorts? River does say, after all, that Lux still has his helment on because "I don't fancy you." And she says that IN FRONT OF THE DOCTOR. I thought it was pretty clear that at least on her end of the relationship, she felt that she was free enough to love the Doctor while still being able to love other people. Which, I think, is a good mirror for how the Doctor would probably live his life without Rose.

Okay, I lied, four things. :)

4. I know what you mean about introducing a new love interest after the last one took four seasons to wrap up. But River strikes me as a totally different kind of love interest. Rose was there at his most vulnerable point, helped him heal, helped him change from Nine to Ten -- but now he seems to have come to terms with himself a bit more. He's grown up. He won't bend the universe to keep Rose with him anymore, because he knows what the consequences are, and he knows she'll be happy with alt!Ten. He's a little more somber, but a little more open. And that's the sort of place where, when you meet someone new, they don't have to force their way in (as Rose did) -- they can just BE THERE, and that might be enough. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think the River romance will be huge and epic and soul-changing for him. It'll be... comfortable. He can show her who he is, instead of letting her define him.

Man, I need to fic this.