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timepiececlockWatched Dollhouse 1x03. Was entertained for unexpected reasons and bored for the expected reasons. Still feeling amicable toward the show, still squicked in general, haven't made up my mind yet on the whole thing.
A. What is and isn't sexist on the show
The mind rape plot device is not sexist. (I've seen Total Recall, and I don't remember ever thinking "Oh, how sexist it is that they keep brain-raping Arnold Schwarzenegger and putting him in life-threatening situations and having him seduced by an attractive operative whom he is programmed to trust and love.") Its victims come in both sexes (so far, 2 named females and 2 named males) and its perpetrators come in both sexes. The act itself has nothing to do with sex or gender as its uses are, in theory, applicable to any aspect of life. It is vile, inhumane, cruel, and amounts to murder, but it's not about power over a certain sex so much as power over everyone. It is a tool that is not gender-oriented unless the user chooses to make it so.
What IS sexist:
1. The male>female ratio of people in power. So far, one female in power position that while high, is implied to work for others of unknown origin/gender. One female in a position that is powerful when compared to the dolls but otherwise of low rank in the company. On the other hand, we've seen multiple males in power positions over the dolls, and a male person in direct power/control of the minds of all the dolls, male and female. (GeekBoy's role is something that many people, including myself, are deeply icked by, especially as we've only been visually confronted with him using his power over female characters.)
2. The prostitution (major ick.) Do I even need to explain why this is sexist?
3. The all-male client list. (ditto)
4. The physical, verbal, and sexual exploitation of female characters in the plot. (episode 2 was the worst in this.)
5. The sexual exploitation of female characters in the eye of the camera. Of all the sexist problems in this show, this is the most mundane and most "expected" of Hollywood but it is still the one that annoys me the most, because it's so constant. Episode 3 was the worst in this issue.
6. The lone campaigning knight as a heroic savior. This is such an immediate cliche that I have to list it, though honestly I expect eventually Echo will be her own hero without the FBI agent's help. However, this will be taken off the list ONLY if it (hopefully) proves to be incorrect.
7. Male-to-Female violence and how female violence is used in reaction, especially when female-to-male violence is indirectly "controlled" by other male characters.
8. The predominance of male handlers. (Until we meet a female handler, I will continue to believe they don't exist.)
(and many more my flist could probably name)
For me personally, the most "ick" things about Dollhouse are the visual exploitation of the female body and the prostitution. I am profoundly grossed out by the mind-wiping stuff, but I'm not any less grossed out when I think about it happening to male dolls so, really, it's the sexist camera POV and the prostitution that really squicks me out.
B. That led me to a realization after I watched tonight's episode, which had an extreme amount of almost-nudity and body exploitation. That realization was this:
The two things that most 'offend' me about this show are also the two things that most offended me about the movie Sin City. This is one of many sexist movies out there that trade in nudity and prostitution, but Sin City particularly grated on me when I watched it. I watched approximately the first thirty minutes of Sin City and my major issues in the first episode of Dollhouse were also part of my issues with SC. In the half hour of SC that I managed to endure, I don't remember one woman who wasn't a) a victim of violence, b) naked, or c) a prostitute. In the first 45-odd minutes of Dollhouse, we see one woman who is a victim of male violence, one major woman who is a victim and a prostitute, and one major woman who is neither.
All the sexist things that bother me about Dollhouse are also in Sin City and similiar movies. I cut out in the middle of Sin City because I was bored and because the script was unbearable (but I took time to be irritated with the sexism along the way, since analyzing the myriad sexist failings of that movie was more interesting that the dialogue on screen). However, I am still amicable to Dollhouse. Why do I tolerate these problems in some shows and decry them in other shows? Is each experience unique?
Some people on my flist loved Sin City but are wailing on the sexism in Dollhouse. I prefer to wail on the sexism in both, even while I enjoy one and despise the other. For some people, they enjoy films like that one but they don't enjoy Dollhouse. I think part of it is hypocrisy (myself as much as anyone), and part of it not being able to be angry at everything so instead we're angry at the ones that push our personal "bullshit" buttons. Since I assume everyone's squick is different, it's quite likely that prostitution and an exploitive camera bothers me while other viewers are more bothered by screen violence and sexist dialogue.
C. Maybe I'm more tolerant of sexist bullshit when there's at least a female lead (Hell, I loved Haruhi Suzumiya), or when I believe the sexist issues will be overcome by the female lead.
I've gone off point with a lot of this. Mostly what I wanted to talk about was how I've read so many posts about the sexism in Dollhouse, and I've written my own, but I'm starting to feel like a hypocrite and see hypocrisy in others because I know there's shows and movies that I enjoy (and that people on my flist enjoy) that have done the same offensive things and sexist tropes that Dollhouse is guilty of, but it didn't stop me from liking or even loving those shows.
However, I also very much understand how each film or tv show is a unique experience and sexist elements can turn you off in one thing while the same sexist trope doesn't make you bat an eye in another show, because it all comes down to execution and presentation.
D. ..it makes a lot more sense to me when people say they don't like Dollhouse because the characters are unlikeable, the plot isn't your thing, or you just think it's bad tv that fails to entertain. If it's those things plus the sexism, then I get it. If it's just the sexism, then a corner of my brain is thinking "I bet there's a movie on your top twenty list that uses the same sexism in a slightly different context and you obviously overlooked it there." (Call me a cynical movie fan, go on, go on.) But really, what is the point of that discussion, since as I mentioned above, squick changes with context? Are people having a disproportionately negative response to the sexism in the show because it's Whedon and we expected "better" going in? [/cynical]
I think I'm just bored of talking/reading about how Dollhouse is the grossest/most sexist thing ever. I want to say "It's bad, very bad, but stop saying it's the worst because we've ALL seen worse, and we've all bought the DVDs for worse or checked out worse from the library." Honestly, there's nothing new about the sexism here. Rather than rant about how horrible it is, I'd rather talk about how it's trying (and at the moment, probably failing) to walk the balance, and what's working and what isn't, and how it could be possible for it to be less offensive or if it's even possible to make this show without being offensive from the start.
E. Or, instead, let's talk about the lack of real funny. THAT IS THE WORST. Sexism? Not new for Joss. Lack of funny? NEW AND SO DISAPPOINTING.
...All that being said, I am oddly looking forward to next week. Messed up, I know. And I did giggle once in episode 3, though for the life of me I can't remember what scene it was.
ETA: this series *does* hit my conspiracy kink. Anyone could be a doll! Trust no one. Hot FBI agent. The truth is out there.
A. What is and isn't sexist on the show
The mind rape plot device is not sexist. (I've seen Total Recall, and I don't remember ever thinking "Oh, how sexist it is that they keep brain-raping Arnold Schwarzenegger and putting him in life-threatening situations and having him seduced by an attractive operative whom he is programmed to trust and love.") Its victims come in both sexes (so far, 2 named females and 2 named males) and its perpetrators come in both sexes. The act itself has nothing to do with sex or gender as its uses are, in theory, applicable to any aspect of life. It is vile, inhumane, cruel, and amounts to murder, but it's not about power over a certain sex so much as power over everyone. It is a tool that is not gender-oriented unless the user chooses to make it so.
What IS sexist:
1. The male>female ratio of people in power. So far, one female in power position that while high, is implied to work for others of unknown origin/gender. One female in a position that is powerful when compared to the dolls but otherwise of low rank in the company. On the other hand, we've seen multiple males in power positions over the dolls, and a male person in direct power/control of the minds of all the dolls, male and female. (GeekBoy's role is something that many people, including myself, are deeply icked by, especially as we've only been visually confronted with him using his power over female characters.)
2. The prostitution (major ick.) Do I even need to explain why this is sexist?
3. The all-male client list. (ditto)
4. The physical, verbal, and sexual exploitation of female characters in the plot. (episode 2 was the worst in this.)
5. The sexual exploitation of female characters in the eye of the camera. Of all the sexist problems in this show, this is the most mundane and most "expected" of Hollywood but it is still the one that annoys me the most, because it's so constant. Episode 3 was the worst in this issue.
6. The lone campaigning knight as a heroic savior. This is such an immediate cliche that I have to list it, though honestly I expect eventually Echo will be her own hero without the FBI agent's help. However, this will be taken off the list ONLY if it (hopefully) proves to be incorrect.
7. Male-to-Female violence and how female violence is used in reaction, especially when female-to-male violence is indirectly "controlled" by other male characters.
8. The predominance of male handlers. (Until we meet a female handler, I will continue to believe they don't exist.)
(and many more my flist could probably name)
For me personally, the most "ick" things about Dollhouse are the visual exploitation of the female body and the prostitution. I am profoundly grossed out by the mind-wiping stuff, but I'm not any less grossed out when I think about it happening to male dolls so, really, it's the sexist camera POV and the prostitution that really squicks me out.
B. That led me to a realization after I watched tonight's episode, which had an extreme amount of almost-nudity and body exploitation. That realization was this:
The two things that most 'offend' me about this show are also the two things that most offended me about the movie Sin City. This is one of many sexist movies out there that trade in nudity and prostitution, but Sin City particularly grated on me when I watched it. I watched approximately the first thirty minutes of Sin City and my major issues in the first episode of Dollhouse were also part of my issues with SC. In the half hour of SC that I managed to endure, I don't remember one woman who wasn't a) a victim of violence, b) naked, or c) a prostitute. In the first 45-odd minutes of Dollhouse, we see one woman who is a victim of male violence, one major woman who is a victim and a prostitute, and one major woman who is neither.
All the sexist things that bother me about Dollhouse are also in Sin City and similiar movies. I cut out in the middle of Sin City because I was bored and because the script was unbearable (but I took time to be irritated with the sexism along the way, since analyzing the myriad sexist failings of that movie was more interesting that the dialogue on screen). However, I am still amicable to Dollhouse. Why do I tolerate these problems in some shows and decry them in other shows? Is each experience unique?
Some people on my flist loved Sin City but are wailing on the sexism in Dollhouse. I prefer to wail on the sexism in both, even while I enjoy one and despise the other. For some people, they enjoy films like that one but they don't enjoy Dollhouse. I think part of it is hypocrisy (myself as much as anyone), and part of it not being able to be angry at everything so instead we're angry at the ones that push our personal "bullshit" buttons. Since I assume everyone's squick is different, it's quite likely that prostitution and an exploitive camera bothers me while other viewers are more bothered by screen violence and sexist dialogue.
C. Maybe I'm more tolerant of sexist bullshit when there's at least a female lead (Hell, I loved Haruhi Suzumiya), or when I believe the sexist issues will be overcome by the female lead.
I've gone off point with a lot of this. Mostly what I wanted to talk about was how I've read so many posts about the sexism in Dollhouse, and I've written my own, but I'm starting to feel like a hypocrite and see hypocrisy in others because I know there's shows and movies that I enjoy (and that people on my flist enjoy) that have done the same offensive things and sexist tropes that Dollhouse is guilty of, but it didn't stop me from liking or even loving those shows.
However, I also very much understand how each film or tv show is a unique experience and sexist elements can turn you off in one thing while the same sexist trope doesn't make you bat an eye in another show, because it all comes down to execution and presentation.
D. ..it makes a lot more sense to me when people say they don't like Dollhouse because the characters are unlikeable, the plot isn't your thing, or you just think it's bad tv that fails to entertain. If it's those things plus the sexism, then I get it. If it's just the sexism, then a corner of my brain is thinking "I bet there's a movie on your top twenty list that uses the same sexism in a slightly different context and you obviously overlooked it there." (Call me a cynical movie fan, go on, go on.) But really, what is the point of that discussion, since as I mentioned above, squick changes with context? Are people having a disproportionately negative response to the sexism in the show because it's Whedon and we expected "better" going in? [/cynical]
I think I'm just bored of talking/reading about how Dollhouse is the grossest/most sexist thing ever. I want to say "It's bad, very bad, but stop saying it's the worst because we've ALL seen worse, and we've all bought the DVDs for worse or checked out worse from the library." Honestly, there's nothing new about the sexism here. Rather than rant about how horrible it is, I'd rather talk about how it's trying (and at the moment, probably failing) to walk the balance, and what's working and what isn't, and how it could be possible for it to be less offensive or if it's even possible to make this show without being offensive from the start.
E. Or, instead, let's talk about the lack of real funny. THAT IS THE WORST. Sexism? Not new for Joss. Lack of funny? NEW AND SO DISAPPOINTING.
...All that being said, I am oddly looking forward to next week. Messed up, I know. And I did giggle once in episode 3, though for the life of me I can't remember what scene it was.
ETA: this series *does* hit my conspiracy kink. Anyone could be a doll! Trust no one. Hot FBI agent. The truth is out there.
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no subject
Date: 2009-02-28 09:20 am (UTC)I don't think this really makes you a hypocrite. If we all hated everything that had sexist tropes then...we really wouldn't have much we could allow ourselves to enjoy. Unfortunately. Because there is just so much sexism in the entertainment industry. What's important is realizing there are problems and being willing to acknowledge them even in things you enjoy. Which you clearly do.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-28 09:22 am (UTC)((makes wide, admiring anime eyes at it))
no subject
Date: 2009-02-28 09:25 am (UTC)Yes, it is. Seirei no Moribito is awesome.
Vague Seirei No Moribito SPOILERS
Date: 2009-02-28 09:31 am (UTC)Seirei no Moribito is awesome.
Yesss. One of those happy situations where we get a really well told story that's also pretty fantastic in its gender stuff. Tanda as mother and healer, Balsa as father/ fighter yet kinda lioness protecting young, Chagum's situation coding as feminine in his capacity as carrier of another life... just...
:) I think I should make time for a re-watch!
Re: Vague Seirei No Moribito SPOILERS
Date: 2009-02-28 09:35 am (UTC)Re: Vague Seirei No Moribito SPOILERS
Date: 2009-02-28 09:35 am (UTC)Re: Vague Seirei No Moribito SPOILERS
Date: 2009-02-28 09:37 am (UTC)Re: Vague Seirei No Moribito SPOILERS
Date: 2009-02-28 09:48 am (UTC)Re: Vague Seirei No Moribito SPOILERS
Date: 2009-02-28 10:03 am (UTC)S
P
O
I
L
E
R
style spacing or white out text, putting warning in the subject does no good at all because seeing the subject means the comment is visible. And gmail sometimes has the first several words of a comment in the subject line of my mail box.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-28 09:21 am (UTC)I've always thought it was just understood that, if we wait for just stories, we'll be waiting a long time and eventually our hunger for story is going to overcome that, if the story is good enough, or hits our personal buttons.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-28 09:34 am (UTC)I'm used to seeing people committed to justice simultaneously squee about and call out -isms in their favorite stories (e.g. awesome feminist Supernatural fans and their meta, their VIDS OMG, their fanfic), as well condemn ick in stuff they didn't enjoy.
People certainly did that for other Whedon shows.
I've always thought it was just understood that, if we wait for just stories, we'll be waiting a long time and eventually our hunger for story is going to overcome that, if the story is good enough, or hits our personal buttons.
In that case, can you tell the entirety of Livejournal to stop making me feel like a bad feminist for liking a show about a slave prostitute mind-rape victim who will probably (two seasons from now) overthrow and possibly violently destroy her oppressors?
no subject
Date: 2009-02-28 09:43 am (UTC)Uh, I guess I just mean that I'm going to choose to listen to people who ping with me. As a feminist fan who takes that approach to stories, I'm probably unconsciously selecting out other feminist fans who take that approach too for my flist/Google reader blogs. It might end up seeming to me as if that's a really widespread way of looking at things, even thought it's actually a tiny, tiny subgroup I happen to have made my fandom universe.
In that case, can you tell the entirety of Livejournal to stop making me feel like a bad feminist for liking a show about a slave prostitute mind-rape victim who will probably (two seasons from now) overthrow and possibly violently destroy her oppressors?
This is sadly not within my power. Speaking for myself, though, I'm glad the show is justifying its existence by giving some people I like enjoyment. I mean, the idea ofsome guys watching it and getting off on the whole setup and visual voyeurism and crap makes me kind of pissed off, and it's nice to know that there are people getting something out of it for better reasons than that.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-28 09:45 am (UTC)Which makes me think that there's a flavor of fannishness that's not related to squee so much as deconstructing a story?
no subject
Date: 2009-02-28 03:01 pm (UTC)But prostitution isn't always something that a woman is forced into. Sometimes, it's something she wants to do.
I was going to say that it doesn't make it right, but I just stopped myself. Really, while I'm not going to sit here and say something stupid like, 'yay, sexually transmitted diseases!', I do think that the perception that prostitution = bad might actually be wrong. Oppression? Yes, that's awful. But prostitution without oppression? Maybe not.
People sell themselves every single day, when you get down to the simple truth of it. The clothes you wear on a job interview make a difference. You could be the best choice for a job, but if you show up in pajamas and bunny slippers, you're not getting hired. So much of what we do depends on how we look.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-28 03:55 pm (UTC)Is a fantasy, at least in today's world.
Whether or not one finds the act of prostitution to be immoral or sexist is a different argument, and one I'm not going to delve into here because it's long and messy and I've already seen the ending. But I do maintain that the prostitution used in Dollhouse is sexist in its execution and all the more disturbing because of the mind-control associated with it and the totality of the objectification that mind control provides.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-28 04:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 09:50 am (UTC)I'm watching Dollhouse casually at this stage and haven't read any real commentary about it other than yours just now, but I'd say that actually, for me, this is the big thing right here and it's true of other non-Whedon shows that claim themselves as feminist or pride themselves on their feminist content. For me, I'm used to the sexism/racism/whateverism in TV and film and will just put up with it when I watch (or completely weed it out if I know it'll piss me off too much) but when TV shows (or the creators) position themselves as being at the forefront of progressive thought on female characters etc, I really do get annoyed when they fuck it up so badly. Which they inevitably do, because the writers are almost all dudes and even if there were women in charge, most women aren't much more progressive and are mindfucked by the patriarchy too.
Of the shows I've been angry about with regards to anti-feminist content, they've all been ones where there've been explicit promises or talk from the creators/writers/etc about how "forward-thinking" and progressive they are (Firefly - about which I wasn't so much mad as aware of some intensely problematic issues, Buffy - race issues bothered me more than sexism but both were probs, BSG and Law & Order: SVU - this one particularly gets me furious). I think what bothers me is that fans and potential viewers read all this progressive talk from the showrunners and then give the show a try and then the show becomes, to their mind, not sexist or not problematic because the people behind it have explicitly expressed their commitment to being forward-thinking. So it sets them up as shining beacons of anti-sexism/racism/whatever and it's only if you're *really* aware that you pick up all the problems, which are just going unnoticed by the everyday viewer who thinks they're watching socially progressive TV. Which is, to an extent, true, but they're also absorbing the buttload of negative stereotypes that haven't been noticed by the writers so the viewer gets their dose of sexism along with their dose of progressive treatment of gender or whatever , and don't notice the former. At least with your everyday show there's no real lie as to the kind of bullshit you're swallowing.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 10:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 10:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 11:16 am (UTC)Re. Sanctuary, I've heard good buzz (and actually had the opportunity to be at an instore signing with Amanda Tapping when I was in the US last year, but I wasn't interested so didn't stick around). I'm not sure if it's sci-fi or character drama set against a sci-fi landscape? I'm fine with the latter but am not really a sci-fi person. I'll likely wait to see if it starts getting more attention from people on my flist before I check it out.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 11:27 am (UTC)If you're interested in character, then I recommend it. I've seen the full half-season of 13 eps, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. The characters ended up being the most likable part, and after four or five episodes when we really get to know the main ones better, I realized "You know, I am really enjoying this show." It has some wildly entertaining side characters that include historic inventor Nicola Tesla...as a vampire. A bitchy opportunistic vampire, which was amusing as fuck.
The show tries for some scares, but usually it pulls back into safe territory. Still, the tension is reliable as either dark or whimsical, and the "mission" of the main characters is purely egalitarian in nature, which makes for a nice change from paranoid, pretentious bore-fests like Fringe.