timepiececlock | I'd like to pose a question to the masses of LJdom

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I'd like to pose a question to the masses of LJdom

Is it possible to have a straightforward discussion of the validity of slash as a character ship (not a fandom ship), without having people get upset?

Sometimes I'd like to sit down with yaoi (slash) fans of Gundam Wing and debate with them why Heero and Duo are not gay, but Quatre and Trowa might be. Or with Highlander, why I do think Methos did it with Byron, but not with Duncan. Or the canon-based exptrapolation of Spike/Angel versus Spike/Xander-- or, if one were so inclined, why none of those work and everyone is straight unless explicitly and irrevicably stated otherwise, or vice versa.

But it seems that slash discussions between people who disagree on whether a slash pairing is valid as a "conventional" couple instead of an unconvention/fandom-based one, always go badly-- and then no one ever really gets to hear the other side's reasons.

Is it just that it's an argument best had in person, where you can read each other's expressions and not take offense so easily?

Do people censor themselves and not try to talk about it, for fear of starting an unintended argument?

Is there a way to say "I don't believe in your ship, you don't believe in mine, let's talk about it and explore why" without the conversation eventually getting bitter?

Do slash fans and het fans even want to have discussion and debate about it?

Or is it like putting Pro-Life-ers in a room with Pro-choice-ers and telling them to talk about only abortion: there will be blood and vitriol no matter how good your intentions?

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Do people censor themselves and not try to talk about it, for fear of starting an unintended argument?
Yes, the number of times I just get up and turn the computer off and walk away far outwiegh the times I engage. Why? No matter how many times I say "I realize Spike/Willow, S/A isn't canon but I can exptrapolate from the canon that..." it's not gonna change the other person's mind, just like no matter how many times someone says to me "Well I think Spike/Buffy is a great romance because..." I'm probably gonna nod and blink.

I think these conversation can happen, but there's too much bad blood a lot of times. For example if you say that you're a Harry/Ginny shipper in Potterfandom peoeple (or IME) look at you like you're a psycho cause of the infamous psycho therefore non H/G shippers are put on the defensive (same goes with Ducks, Kittens, Slashers, whatever) I think the bad apples tend to taint the way the rest of the fandom views a ship therefore whether they intend to or not when engaging in debate the think "Well this person is a Spike fan so they have to be off thier nut."

Also I know with slash theres the feeling that often comes of up a slasher having to explain themselves and it can feel like you're dumping your underwear drawer out for fandom to see since that is part of sexuality.

Under controlled and modded circumstances I think these discussions could happen but in fandom? *sigh* I don't find it all that likely.

Or maybe *I'm* just fucking insane.

I hope you sleep well, then, because I don't think you're totally insane. :)

I think the bad apples tend to taint the way the rest of the fandom views a ship therefore whether they intend to or not when engaging in debate the think "Well this person is a Spike fan so they have to be off thier nut."

I can definitely see that being an issue. It is hard to go into any kind of discussion like that without bias, even unfair bias that you don't like to think you have.

Also I know with slash theres the feeling that often comes of up a slasher having to explain themselves and it can feel like you're dumping your underwear drawer out for fandom to see since that is part of sexuality.

In a discussion I had with

sisabet tonight (that partially prompted my opening the question up here) she said something very similar, that people get touchy because they feel they have to explain themselves and justify the things that turn them on, as part of justifying their ship, and that in that situation it's easy to inadvertantly insult someone.

Well. It seems to be a problem, doesn't it? Truly wish it would work-- because, just like you, I *wonder*. But a reasonable, in-depth discussion? Chances aren't good. Of course, I'm a firm fence-straddler: loved MSR back in the day-- was a bit of a SKipper later--, *came* to BtVS loving the Spuffy as my OTP to end all OTPs, found Oz/Willow the cutest thing since puppies and thought Gunn/Gwen in Players was intriguing.
Of course, many het pairings bore me to tears.
As for BtVS-- throughout the seasons, I came to the conclusion Buffy/Faith was a riveting dynamic also teeming with romantic (as much as it can get with Faith *g*) potential.

wiseacress then made me see the Spander; and maybe, just very, very maybe, someone can convince me Spike-on-Angel isn't just a twisted thing of days long past... & ;-)

But generally, I believe that any slash and het discussion would first need separate a few issues: canon and fanon, alternate universes and the show itself, emotions and facts. Last but not least, de gustibus non disputandum: You can argue about the foundations, i.e. the objective elements of the show, but ultimately, the interpretation thereof is each viewer's own.

Sure, with some I don't agree-- I might want to but really can't.

You *could* state that a large portion of the population does not consider, say, Angel/Wes a credible relationship when taking the characters as portrayed on screen, and it would be an absolutely true statement-- but it would not matter to, say,

thebratqueen because the lens through which she views the show differs from the one(s) worn by most other people...

I believe that any slash and het discussion would first need separate a few issues: canon and fanon, alternate universes and the show itself, emotions and facts. Last but not least, de gustibus non disputandum: You can argue about the foundations, i.e. the objective elements of the show, but ultimately, the interpretation thereof is each viewer's own.

Well-put. I agree, you would have to set some boundaries in the beginning of the conversation, just to make sure you're talking about the same thing.

Perhaps ultimately it must be determined before hand that neither is really attempting to change the other's mind, and that it's not a personal attack.

In my personal opinion people are too touchy about things. I love Buffy/Spike, typically dislike slash, I don't care if someone else has a think for Spike/Angel or Spike/Xander or whatever. Some of it I CAN see on screen, some of it I simply can't, regardless, but whether or not it's there doesn't mean I want to read it. Kennedy and Willow for instance was on screen, but am I running off to read Kennedy/Willow fics? ARE there any Kennedy/Willow fics? So you see my point.

When it comes to HP, the only slash pairing I can even contemplate seeing is Sirius/Remus and then, more likely to be during the marauders days pre-Azkaban for Sirius. Not so much in the later years. All other slash either bores me to tears, or just makes me go uh, yeah, right. It's okay that somebody else loves a certain ship and I'd certainly be willing to listen to their reasons why, but would they want to hear mine?

When it comes to HP, the only slash pairing I can even contemplate seeing is Sirius/Remus and then, more likely to be during the marauders days pre-Azkaban for Sirius.

I didn't even know that S/R was considered a popular slash pair until I started joining that fandom. Then I was like, "Ok, sure, we know so little about them and we haven't been told anything either way, so that's fine." Some of the other slash pairings I've come across in HP, especially H/D, I basically read the same as Hermione/Draco--- Draco is so fanon by the time you get to the point of romancing a good-guy, that of course his sexuality is up for grabs too. But then, I tend to like fanon-Draco.

Perhaps ultimately it must be determined before hand that neither is really attempting to change the other's mind, and that it's not a personal attack.

Yeah, that's a good idea. that's what someoen else said too-- work out the rules and boundaries before the conversation, and the accidental insults will hopefully be less.

I've had discussions with people about it w/o it getting bitter. The point is, though, it can't be an open debate because people in general just aren't mature enough to handle it. Period.

My discussions on the topic of GW yaoi with some of my friends that are yaoi fans have been positive experiences as in, they became my friends because we could talk about it, both approach it with open minds, and see points in the other's circumstances. HOWEVER, most of my friends that are yaoi fans will admit, there's nothing in the show that supports the Duo/Heero pairing, but they just like it. And that's FINE with me.

I just get irritated with the ones that swear its gospel. But those people, aren't going to debate with an open mind. Otherwise, they would have opened their eyes and been able to admit, there's quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.

Why is this? I have no idea. I don't like people telling me there's no 1xR evidence in the series, but I've gotten to a point where I know my own mind, I can see with my own 2 eyes, and it doesn't matter to me what anyone else thinks on that account.

I'm really just rambling. The answer to your question is: I've tried, had some successes, some failures, but in the end, it's just best to chalk it up to this is their preference for X reason, and this is your preference for Y reason, write what you want, read what you want, respect others, and fandom can be big enough for everyone.

Love,
Rose <--who REALLY likes your avatar. One of my favorite movies of all time!!!

HOWEVER, most of my friends that are yaoi fans will admit, there's nothing in the show that supports the Duo/Heero pairing, but they just like it.

That's an interesting (and good) thing to hear, because most of the people I've talked to (and I stopped after the first few arguments wnet unhappy) on the subject of 1x2 are the gospel-swearing kind, not the "I like it and can infer" kind. I've read several pro-yaoi explanatory essays that swear upon the altar of canon that theirs is the way and Relena should die or just walk off or something. It got kind of exhausting. Sometimes in that fandom I wonder if how I feel is much like how the slash minority in other fandoms must feel.

I'm glad to here that someone is having good conversations though. It's a positive sign.

Anyone who says that, is an idiot, and not worth your time. They're the sheep who follow the tide, and really have no reasoning for their beliefs and are NOT comfortable with them, so they get defensive when someone argues an opposing viewpoint - to the point of idiocy.

Anyone with a brain can see that there was a "connection" between Heero and Relena. Anyone with a copy of Blind Target and who doesn't have "yaoi blinders on" can see that there is more than a connection. It's out and out canon, but in trying to be completely "fair", I don't ask others to declare it is "the one official truth", because I don't need them to. All I ask is that they respect MY opinion and MY preference, the SAME WAY I respect THEIRS.

But that is the key. I show THEM respect first, and then ask it in return.

As for slash minority in other fandoms.... I've yet to find a series where the slash fans are in the minority. Maybe it's the series I'm choosing...

:/

Love,
Rose

PS - It took a lot of time and effort to have these positive discussions. Some of it was really worthwhile, but for the most part, I genuinely recommend just staying away from the issue. And the yaoi fans on my Friends list are generally the ones I've had positive interactions with, that at the VERY least don't feel threatened by the fact I write 1xR, just like I am not threatened by the fact they write/read/prefer 1x2.

I've yet to find a series where the slash fans are in the minority. Maybe it's the series I'm choosing...

There's definite differences between anime and tv/movie genre fans in that regard-- I'm not sure if there is any fandom in anime where yaoi could be qualified as minority (I say that tentatively, because anime fans are so many for so many shows, and I've only experienced a small part of that.) Mostly because anime has a lot more of it in canon than western tv/books/comics/movies do.

By the way, I'm glad you like the icon! The Shawshank Redemption is one of my favorite films too. It's amazing.

I think part of the problem is that people come into these discussions with many different underlying assumptions (that apply to very personal aspects of human life), so it's very easy to get offended or to offend someone inadventently.

For example, do you think that engaging in any sexual act with a person of the same gender automatically makes a character "gay"? Do you think that people can always easily be divided into "gay" and "straight"? Do you automatically assume that every character is "straight" unless explicitly shown otherwise? Do you believe that everyone has the potential to be attracted to anyone, regardless of gender? Do you think that gender is culturally constructed and that "gay" and "straight" are just categories that we need to get beyond? How people feel about these issues will have a strong impact on the way they discuss the issue--and misunderstandings or misinterpretations can happen so easily.

Do you think that the only meaningful interpretation of a text is the one that the author intended? Or do you think that the text belongs to the viewers to interpret, and the author's intent is irrelevant? How you feel about that is going to have a big impact on how you feel about non-canonical pairings.

It seems that many people come into these arguments without even realizing that the other person could have a completely different underlying belief about the value of the author's intent, or about the nature of human sexuality, or about whatever else that's behind their opinion. This leads to lots of arguments that just go in circles, because the people aren't looking any deeper to try and find the real source of their disagreement. They're just going, "You're wrong!" or "You're sexist!" or "You're homophobic!" or whatever.

Personally, I don't think "is this valid" is a useful question. I don't even know what "valid" means.

Does it mean, we'll see it on the screen this season? Does it mean, we would've seen it on the screen this season if the network had allowed it? Does it mean, sure, we'll never see it on the screen, but I can see enough moments of the subtext in canon to justify the idea that the sexual tension was intended by the writers even if they'll never act on it?

Does it mean, I don't think the writers intended subtext, but what they wrote is the kind of relationship that I've seen lead to sex in the real world/other fiction? Does it mean, regardless of whether these characters like each other (or have even met), they have enough in common that I believe they'd have a good/hot/interesting relationship if the right circumstances threw them together?

I'm not sure I believe there exists a pairing that *couldn't* be made believeable by the right writer with the right premise. I've seen people pull off some fucking miracles in that regard, because their individual characterization is so spot on that the interaction is convincing, no matter how odd the set up. Contrarywise I've seen the shows themselves fail to sell me on a pairing that felt forced and had no chemistry.

I think the question "is this valid" is inherently bitter-making, because it implies judgement. As opposed to "I don't like it, I don't see it," which keeps the focus on the speaker instead of "justify yourself."

It also puts slash fans at an inherent disadvantage, since the real world effect on what they're allowed to do is not free of bias. It was much harder for Joss to get permission to do Willow and Tara's first kiss than to do Buffy and Riley having sex for an entire episode. It's hard to get people who are used to overt cues to take subtext as seriously.

Personally, I'm not all that interested in finding out why people don't like and believe in my ships. They're most likely never going to, there's plenty of fic and plenty of subtext out there for all of us without us having to convince the other. Unlike the abortion thing, I don't see who it hurts if we all just do our own stuff and let the people who disagree with us alone to do theirs.

There are ships (slash and het) that I'll never believe in -- or more to the point, they could be fucking on screen tomorrow, but it would be hard to make me care. Those relationships don't play out dynamics that I find interesting or touching or sexy or whatever, so my lack of belief is not so much the statement "that could never happen" as "I don't want to see it happen".

Mer

Does it mean, we'll see it on the screen this season? Does it mean, we would've seen it on the screen this season if the network had allowed it? Does it mean, sure, we'll never see it on the screen, but I can see enough moments of the subtext in canon to justify the idea that the sexual tension was intended by the writers even if they'll never act on it?

Does it mean, I don't think the writers intended subtext, but what they wrote is the kind of relationship that I've seen lead to sex in the real world/other fiction?

All of those things, separately. I guess that's another thing you'd have to specify in the start of the conversation.

I think the question "is this valid" is inherently bitter-making, because it implies judgement. As opposed to "I don't like it, I don't see it," which keeps the focus on the speaker instead of "justify yourself."

That's a great point.

Personally, I'm not all that interested in finding out why people don't like and believe in my ships. They're most likely never going to, there's plenty of fic and plenty of subtext out there for all of us without us having to convince the other. Unlike the abortion thing, I don't see who it hurts if we all just do our own stuff and let the people who disagree with us alone to do theirs.

Ah, that's where we're different. I am interested in talking about that general area of things, even though I don't do it very much because it's so easy for conversations to turn hostile. You're right, it doesn't involve serious injury to people like debating abortion could include, but I still like to talk about t

...but I still like to talk about the differences people have/like/see in that sort of thing.

Thanks for replying to my post!

No problem! And in practice, if you ask about one of my particular ships in a way that doesn't ruffle feathers, I'll probably jump in anyway, because talking about characters is fun, and when do I not shoot my mouth off? :) I just don't feel the need to seek it out, and when it gets touchy I'd rather walk away than struggle through.

Oh, one more thing: sometimes slash fans get touchy because it seems like a higher standard of validity is bring demanded of slash pairings than het but non-canon pairings are held to. That seems to come off an assumption than everyone who's ever been seen to date someone of the opposite sex is therefore presumptively heterosexual, which annoys some of us bi types no end.

Mer

it seems like a higher standard of validity is bring demanded of slash pairings than het but non-canon pairings are held to.

:raises eyebrow: If it makes you feel better, I find post-season 4 Spike/Willow totally unfuckingbelievableneverhappenEVER.

Seriously though, I do see your point.

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I'd like to pose a question to the masses of LJdom

kinda sleepy so..

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dang, it cut off my last few words! -previous post continued-

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