various rants

[timepiececlock]

This is a carry-over from another conversation I had in November, long time ago. It talks about the flaws in the fanatical B/A-er perception of Buffy's character (as I've oserved from visiting othe boards), and then about some differences in how Spike and Angel each loved Buffy.


Some fanatical B/A-ers (the very anti-Spike kind) have Buffy on this absurd pedastal--- she can do no wrong, and everything Spike gets he deserves, etc etc, as well as anyone else. I think that's silly because-- as was proved in CwDP--- Buffy was fucked up last year, and unable to love anyone or tolerate being loved. One of Joss' trademark story styles is to take a character who seemingly's got it all together, and knock them down a peg or twenty. Buffy's no different--- she gets the same harsh treatment. Besides, part of what makes an interesting hero is their flaws, and putting Buffy up like a paragon of everything bright and white and light means you're not watching her as the multi-dimensional person that ME is trying to convey, like they do with all their multi-layered characters.

Now that I think about it, that's also kinda the difference between S/B and A/B... Angel loved Buffy because she was his shining ideal. Spike loved Buffy for a similar reason-- because she was every bright and shining and strong and out of his reach. But he loved her FIRST as a warrior, a challenge, an equal. Then he loved her for being a hero, as I described above. And then, by season 6, he'd seen everything dark in her, everything she could be, and even though it was no picnic for either of them, he loved that part of her too, as strongly as the hero half. He loves her with her flaws, not despite them. It's why Buffy didn't feel she had to present any sort of mask when she was around him (before the sex, anyway)-- because nothing she could do or say or be would change his opinion of her.

Comments

[isabellecs.livejournal.com]

AHA! I see you have started my favorite discussion, the 'why start the Buffy-bitch' parade. I think it's rather amusing how, if we sit back, and look at the BTVS internet as a society, it's very much like political parties. There's opposing views, there's theories and then there's dictatorships. BTVS is a dictatorship, in the way that we have to swallow everything that Joss gives us because it's his story (and NOTE: I'm all for the swallowing ;) )

On one side of town, the die-hard *fanatical* B/A'ers cry that their story has been broken, the characters smashed, and what was presented to them in the beginning was all a lie. Yes it was a lie, a deliberate lie, one that most of the rest of the population has caught on. And I mean not to say that Ange; love for BUffy was less or vise versa, I mean to say that it was only a 'part' of the story--there was more. Much more to come. To stay in the Seasonal 1-3 view of perfection is to view Buffy's life as a half. To deny yourself the pleasure of understanding the story as a whole, and accepting it is what makes you a *fanatical*. And for the rest of the population, you are scary. V.scary.

Now, on the other side of town there are the B/S'ers and as I've said many times those are separated into 2 groups, those that 'ship Spike, mainly. They (although they THINK they are) are not true 'shippers. Because their point of interest is not the relationship, but the character Spike. Then there's a tinier group, called the B/S'ers, they follow the 'ship. You see, the Spikers would be happy if Spike followed his own show, became a start, but it's mainly to keep seeing JM's on the screen. (and NOTE: I do not mean that senseless excuse the anti'Spikers have come up with that all Spike-fans see in the character is all pretty--that's baseless and trying.)

So, what happens it that if Buffy is mean, or bitchy, which most women can be from time to time, then we have what is called the BUffy bitch parades that are ridiculous and immature. 'Buffy is a bitch because she wont have pity on Spike' blah blah blah.

So we have 2 very extremes. Those that hate Buffy but want her with Spike, which is the largest oxymoron since the invention of the word, and then there's those who accept that BOTH characters had fallouts in the relationship. Did I explain that correctly? I swear, I've said this so many times that I get tired of my same speech.

Those who dont like the dark themes are not brave enough for BTVS, it's a dark show, grow to love it, if not, catch Gilmore Girls or something like that. I think Joss is trying to tell us that 'eternal, Romeo/Juliet' love doesn't last and that relationships are really dark, people hold secrets, it's about sex and IF you can survive all that then we'll talk about love. It's a realistic view and I do think many people are offended by the realistic view.

On that note can I say how much it annoys me fans that still call Spike a rapist. If we're going to say Spike is no good for Buffy because he's a rapist and she's better with Angel then we have to blame Angel for everything Angelus did.

So, in terms of logic. If Spike is a rapist, Angel is a rapist also (he did rape Dru, I am sure). So dont throw the stone until you're brave enough to have it also thrown at you.

And Rashaka, I'm sorry I took over your LJ, I just had to post that. ;)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

They (although they THINK they are) are not true 'shippers. Because their point of interest is not the relationship, but the character Spike.

One of my sources of great angst in being a Buffy fan. I love Spike's character. I'm terribly fangirlish about it, actually. But if they introduced another love interest for him-- I'd hate it. Absolutely detest it, because as much as I love & lust for Spike as a character, I like him best when he's All!About!Buffy. And I think that's probably got a lot to do with the romantic in me who sees the all-consuming, life-changing love, and that makes his character more attractive. Meaning that my attraction to him would lesson if he could just turn it off and find True Love with a Mary Sue. Also, I like Buffy so much as a character-- first because she's cool and second because she's flawed, and human. And I've seen all the episodes of what comprises her life on screen, and I think that Spike, in the end, is the guy that is best suited to be by her side. How can you like a ship when you hate half of it?

I don't want Spike to be happy. I want Spike to be happy with Buffy. That's what I want from the show.

Did I explain that correctly? I swear, I've said this so many times that I get tired of my same speech.

::laugh:: Well, as a fan of your speeches, yep, I've heard that one. yep, it makes sense. And yep-- I still agree.


I think Joss is trying to tell us that 'eternal, Romeo/Juliet' love doesn't last and that relationships are really dark, people hold secrets, it's about sex and IF you can survive all that then we'll talk about love.

That's an excellent way of phrasing the idea, as it summarizes so much of why I like the B/S saga as its been given to us on the show. For a romantic story on screen; it's pretty unusual-- because it's not easy. And that makes it great fun to watch.

On that note can I say how much it annoys me fans that still call Spike a rapist. If we're going to say Spike is no good for Buffy because he's a rapist and she's better with Angel then we have to blame Angel for everything Angelus did.

:sigh: Don't let me get started on that; together we'll go on forever. Other shippers may say Spike isn't as good for Bufy or as loved by her as Angel was, or that he doesn't deserve he because he hasn't been punished enough, and that I'm a stupid lust-eyed fangirl for liking the ship, but at least we don't do hypocrisy as a general statement of ship dogma. As if any particular ship/fandom has to have actual "dogma" or "rules" anyway.

And Rashaka, I'm sorry I took over your LJ, I just had to post that. ;)

You're welcome, any time. The more you comment on my LJ--hell, the more pleased I'll be.