various rants

[timepiececlock]

This is a carry-over from another conversation I had in November, long time ago. It talks about the flaws in the fanatical B/A-er perception of Buffy's character (as I've oserved from visiting othe boards), and then about some differences in how Spike and Angel each loved Buffy.


Some fanatical B/A-ers (the very anti-Spike kind) have Buffy on this absurd pedastal--- she can do no wrong, and everything Spike gets he deserves, etc etc, as well as anyone else. I think that's silly because-- as was proved in CwDP--- Buffy was fucked up last year, and unable to love anyone or tolerate being loved. One of Joss' trademark story styles is to take a character who seemingly's got it all together, and knock them down a peg or twenty. Buffy's no different--- she gets the same harsh treatment. Besides, part of what makes an interesting hero is their flaws, and putting Buffy up like a paragon of everything bright and white and light means you're not watching her as the multi-dimensional person that ME is trying to convey, like they do with all their multi-layered characters.

Now that I think about it, that's also kinda the difference between S/B and A/B... Angel loved Buffy because she was his shining ideal. Spike loved Buffy for a similar reason-- because she was every bright and shining and strong and out of his reach. But he loved her FIRST as a warrior, a challenge, an equal. Then he loved her for being a hero, as I described above. And then, by season 6, he'd seen everything dark in her, everything she could be, and even though it was no picnic for either of them, he loved that part of her too, as strongly as the hero half. He loves her with her flaws, not despite them. It's why Buffy didn't feel she had to present any sort of mask when she was around him (before the sex, anyway)-- because nothing she could do or say or be would change his opinion of her.

Comments

AT the risk of spoiling my own essay...

[mrthursday.livejournal.com]

Your not refering to that disscussion we had? Was that back in November? Only Iask because I would resent being considered a fanatical B/A-er.

That out of the way... I Agree. Agree totally.

But are you drawing the conclusion that Spikes love for Buffy is somehow superior to Angel's love for Buffy? I don't think thats true. Certainly they are routed in different aspects of Buffy and what they see in Buffy, but the actual love they hold is I think the same in its desire and passion.

One of the unique things about BtVS is it has matured with its audience, and to a certain degree this has benifited Spike. The fairey tale like manner which Buffy and Angel's love was protrayed back in the early seasons would not suffice today. The writers wanted to show a more adult relationship, where people are cruel to each other and things where not always rosey (and lets face it even Angel-Buffy break ups where quite tame. This was idealised Mills & Boon love). As such we have a far more realistic and if you like dramaticly intense (I use this term relucantly) Love story in Spike and Buffy. To conclude that the love Spike has for Buffy is somehow supperior would seem to me to be unfair. I think they are equal (god I feel like a extra in King Lear here!), equal but different due to the conventions of the seasons they are presented in.


Please excuse typing errors I am actually at work and therefor somewhat abusing my privellieges!

[saava.livejournal.com]

I'm a die hard B/S shipper but I have a lot of problems with many B/S-ers in that opposite of putting Buffy on a pedestal, they blame her for the whole messy Spuffy relationship last year. I just don't get all the Buffy hate that's floating around.

Re: AT the risk of spoiling my own essay...

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Your not refering to that disscussion we had? Was that back in November? Only Iask because I would resent being considered a fanatical B/A-er.

::blink:: No. If I thought you were overly fanatical anything I wouldn't HAVE prolonged conversations with you. And plus, I thought you weren't a shipper at all. That's what you said.

But are you drawing the conclusion that Spikes love for Buffy is somehow superior to Angel's love for Buffy? I don't think thats true. Certainly they are routed in different aspects of Buffy and what they see in Buffy, but the actual love they hold is I think the same in its desire and passion.

I have watched seasons 1-3, and I don't think that Angel's love wasn't passionate. Love or hate, a lack of passion wasn't the problem. I do think the love was less mature-- he said "in 200 years I've loved one woman" (paraphrasing)-- that to me indicates even more that this was a "first love" situation not only for Buffy, but to some degree for Angel, too. First loves are very passionate. I just think that the love Spike has for Buffy is more grounded than Angel's, more based on the whole and less based on the idea of being in love. That being said, if Angel had never had the clause, he would still be on the show and still probably be in love with Buffy, and Spike would be slain or off with Drusilla. And maybe if that situation had occured, over 7 years A&B's love would have become something much greater, and grown up as she grew. But it didn't, and B&A were left with a just a first-love-tragedy, whereas B&S are becoming the love that will be part of Buffy's adult life.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I hate that too, and I want to emphasize that that's NOT what I was trying to say here. That usually is stuff that's said by Spike fans who are sometimes B/S-ers. I'm a fan of Spike but I'm a fan of Buffy too, and I couldn't be a genuine B/S-fan if I hated half the pair. Yes, there's loads of things Spike did to mess them up while they were together-- it was a joint effort, though I do think Buffy did more on about a (hesitant) 70/30 scale to make the relationship fail, intentionally. That paragraph was about Buffy's character in entirety--I was talking about not only her ability for romantic, love, but for platonic love and love of family also.

Re:

[saava.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to sound insulting to you in any way, and I'm sorry if I did.

And yes, Buffy was shut off *completely* last year, as was shown in her inability to deal with Dawn. (Though I think she shouldn't be to blame for ignoring Willow - she's a big girl, and screwed up herself.)

I'd actually put more of the blame on Spike, even though I adore him. Because while, in some episodes (gone, the early season six eps before Smashed) he was kind and understanding, but once they started with the smooching he wasn't exactly Mr. Supportive but rather Mr. You're Darkness, I Tell You! And I*hated* that that happened because it didn't fit in at all with the way he'd treated her from the middle of season five until then.

And even though I haven't been happy with the last couple of eps, I like Buffy and Spike much better this year.

Re: AT the risk of spoiling my own essay...

[mrthursday.livejournal.com]

Nah, I am not a shipper! I just enjoy the show.


"I do think the love was less mature"

That was what i was tryin got say in the middle paragraph. I think it was made to appear less mature because the show back then was "less mature". I don't know! jist kinda feel sorry poor angel, stuck on another netwrok and unable to react to news of what his former lover and "grnadson" are up to. Can you inagine his face?
(by the way please excuse me if they have already delt with that in the US. only seen three series of Angel so far. the fourth starts...Oh Tomorrow)


"whereas B&S are becoming the love that will be part of Buffy's adult life."

We'll see about that! (laughs evilly and then scurries off to do his essay)

Re:

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to sound insulting to you in any way, and I'm sorry if I did.

::waves hand off:: Bah. I'm weird this morning-- I think it's made me snappy or something.

And even though I haven't been happy with the last couple of eps, I like Buffy and Spike much better this year.

I like everyone better this year. :g: I like Xander again, and Willow more, and totally Buffy. And I liked Dawn last year, but I like her even more now as well. I liked crazy-spike as a character, but I don't know what to make of this quiet Spike we've got now. Still, he's not doing some of the things that bugged me last year, like when he had zero self confidence and let himself be used, or when he decided that convincing Buffy that she was dark was the only wya to get her.

Re: AT the risk of spoiling my own essay...

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

jist kinda feel sorry poor angel, stuck on another netwrok and unable to react to news of what his former lover and "grnadson" are up to. Can you inagine his face?

Well, I think it would have bugged him last year. It'd probably still annoy him, if only because he wouldn't trust Spike not to hurt Buffy. But this season--nah. I think he's got a lot more to worry about and be upset about than Buffy's romantic choices. Namely, his own. But I don't want to spoil the whole Angel season so far for you, if you dont' know.

[isabellecs.livejournal.com]

AHA! I see you have started my favorite discussion, the 'why start the Buffy-bitch' parade. I think it's rather amusing how, if we sit back, and look at the BTVS internet as a society, it's very much like political parties. There's opposing views, there's theories and then there's dictatorships. BTVS is a dictatorship, in the way that we have to swallow everything that Joss gives us because it's his story (and NOTE: I'm all for the swallowing ;) )

On one side of town, the die-hard *fanatical* B/A'ers cry that their story has been broken, the characters smashed, and what was presented to them in the beginning was all a lie. Yes it was a lie, a deliberate lie, one that most of the rest of the population has caught on. And I mean not to say that Ange; love for BUffy was less or vise versa, I mean to say that it was only a 'part' of the story--there was more. Much more to come. To stay in the Seasonal 1-3 view of perfection is to view Buffy's life as a half. To deny yourself the pleasure of understanding the story as a whole, and accepting it is what makes you a *fanatical*. And for the rest of the population, you are scary. V.scary.

Now, on the other side of town there are the B/S'ers and as I've said many times those are separated into 2 groups, those that 'ship Spike, mainly. They (although they THINK they are) are not true 'shippers. Because their point of interest is not the relationship, but the character Spike. Then there's a tinier group, called the B/S'ers, they follow the 'ship. You see, the Spikers would be happy if Spike followed his own show, became a start, but it's mainly to keep seeing JM's on the screen. (and NOTE: I do not mean that senseless excuse the anti'Spikers have come up with that all Spike-fans see in the character is all pretty--that's baseless and trying.)

So, what happens it that if Buffy is mean, or bitchy, which most women can be from time to time, then we have what is called the BUffy bitch parades that are ridiculous and immature. 'Buffy is a bitch because she wont have pity on Spike' blah blah blah.

So we have 2 very extremes. Those that hate Buffy but want her with Spike, which is the largest oxymoron since the invention of the word, and then there's those who accept that BOTH characters had fallouts in the relationship. Did I explain that correctly? I swear, I've said this so many times that I get tired of my same speech.

Those who dont like the dark themes are not brave enough for BTVS, it's a dark show, grow to love it, if not, catch Gilmore Girls or something like that. I think Joss is trying to tell us that 'eternal, Romeo/Juliet' love doesn't last and that relationships are really dark, people hold secrets, it's about sex and IF you can survive all that then we'll talk about love. It's a realistic view and I do think many people are offended by the realistic view.

On that note can I say how much it annoys me fans that still call Spike a rapist. If we're going to say Spike is no good for Buffy because he's a rapist and she's better with Angel then we have to blame Angel for everything Angelus did.

So, in terms of logic. If Spike is a rapist, Angel is a rapist also (he did rape Dru, I am sure). So dont throw the stone until you're brave enough to have it also thrown at you.

And Rashaka, I'm sorry I took over your LJ, I just had to post that. ;)

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

They (although they THINK they are) are not true 'shippers. Because their point of interest is not the relationship, but the character Spike.

One of my sources of great angst in being a Buffy fan. I love Spike's character. I'm terribly fangirlish about it, actually. But if they introduced another love interest for him-- I'd hate it. Absolutely detest it, because as much as I love & lust for Spike as a character, I like him best when he's All!About!Buffy. And I think that's probably got a lot to do with the romantic in me who sees the all-consuming, life-changing love, and that makes his character more attractive. Meaning that my attraction to him would lesson if he could just turn it off and find True Love with a Mary Sue. Also, I like Buffy so much as a character-- first because she's cool and second because she's flawed, and human. And I've seen all the episodes of what comprises her life on screen, and I think that Spike, in the end, is the guy that is best suited to be by her side. How can you like a ship when you hate half of it?

I don't want Spike to be happy. I want Spike to be happy with Buffy. That's what I want from the show.

Did I explain that correctly? I swear, I've said this so many times that I get tired of my same speech.

::laugh:: Well, as a fan of your speeches, yep, I've heard that one. yep, it makes sense. And yep-- I still agree.


I think Joss is trying to tell us that 'eternal, Romeo/Juliet' love doesn't last and that relationships are really dark, people hold secrets, it's about sex and IF you can survive all that then we'll talk about love.

That's an excellent way of phrasing the idea, as it summarizes so much of why I like the B/S saga as its been given to us on the show. For a romantic story on screen; it's pretty unusual-- because it's not easy. And that makes it great fun to watch.

On that note can I say how much it annoys me fans that still call Spike a rapist. If we're going to say Spike is no good for Buffy because he's a rapist and she's better with Angel then we have to blame Angel for everything Angelus did.

:sigh: Don't let me get started on that; together we'll go on forever. Other shippers may say Spike isn't as good for Bufy or as loved by her as Angel was, or that he doesn't deserve he because he hasn't been punished enough, and that I'm a stupid lust-eyed fangirl for liking the ship, but at least we don't do hypocrisy as a general statement of ship dogma. As if any particular ship/fandom has to have actual "dogma" or "rules" anyway.

And Rashaka, I'm sorry I took over your LJ, I just had to post that. ;)

You're welcome, any time. The more you comment on my LJ--hell, the more pleased I'll be.